I am so very unimpressed. Please do better. Thanks.
Well, if this is a slave vs. oppressor thing, then there is nothing to talk about. Because there aren’t any slaves around, and the opressors of those slaves are no longer around either. No plaintiffs, no defendants, no issue. Do you see any slaves around? Can you show me an oppressor? Didn’t think so.
On another issue entirely - Don’t pretend that the issue at hand is independant of the issue of race relations today. The oppressors during slavery were white, and the oppressed were black, therefore the entire issue of slavery is a giant wedge between the races that will never be removed untill we move on as a society. Nobody wants to forget about it, and I’m not saying we should forget about it. But we have to let it go. Constantly talking about who did what to whom, or who deserves what from whom, or who enslaved whom, only drives the wedge deeper and deeper. Maybe someday we’ll see Dr. King’s dream come to fruition, but then maybe I’m just naive.
Well, minty green, it’s nice of you to give all of us a history lesson. And you know what? If people want to sue over the Spanish Inquistion, why shouldn’t they be able to?
If they can provide proof that they had an ancestor damaged by the activities of the Spanish Inquistion and that this damage negatively impacted their families’ estate, then why not?
The Inquistion was more than half a millinium ago, I believe. We’re talking about maybe 50 generations or so, give or take a few. Makes the 3 generations separating me from my closest slave descendant seem mighty small and irrelevant, doesn’t it?
We can make anything and everything fade into the past with enough effort. But it gets harder when you start fading away the memory of folks who are still remembered by people living today.
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*Originally posted by Airbeck *
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Oh, I’m not pretending anything. But from my perspective, this isn’t about “those blacks just stirring up stuff”. This is about the descendents of wronged people trying to seek redressal. The race of the players is secondary.
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What are you talking about? Most people on this board want to forget about it and move on. That’s all I’ve been hearing from posters. And I’m all for moving on. But I’m sorry, I’m not going to forget how my ancestors were brought to this country or “let go” of whatever it is you want me to let go. That’s like asking the Jews to forget what happened to them in Germany. The Jews have that saying about not forgetting, dontchaknow? Well, my peeps have the same kind of philosophy and I’m holding on to it. Not with bitterness, but with simple appreciation that the hell my people went through was not their fault. And why anyone would have a problem with that is beyond me.
And for once, I’d like to see a thread on race where someone doesn’t end a paragraph with a comment about Dr. King’s dream. It’s starting to become a tired cliche. Originality, people!
I certainly never said it was inconsequential nor do I think most people have a “shut up” attitude about it. Well, maybe they have a shut up attitude when people piss and moan that they deserve an apology. But I’ve never met someone who refused to acknowledge that slavery existed and that it was bad.
Marc
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There’s nobody to apologize to.
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Well you’re wrong of course. We can tell other nations that slavery is wrong without being hypocrites because we abolished it within our own borders. If we told other nations that slavery was wrong and at the same time kept slaves of our own then we would be hypocrites.
I majored in history in college. I would never ever tell someone they should shrug their shoulders and forget. The events of the past do much to shape the events of the present. But there’s nobody to apologize to.
Marc
No one’s pissing and moaning for an apology from you or any other individual, MGibson, are they? So why should you care?
The branch of government that would issue an apology would be the legislatures. These are people from my state who represent me in Washington. I certainly care what my representatives in the House and Senate have to say on my behalf.
In the grand scheme of things I guess it isn’t the most important issue in the world. I’m certainly not going to write angry letters or march in the streets in any attempt to prevent the federal government from making a formal apology for slavery.
Of course maybe the government doesn’t want to apologize because that could be used in a suit against them. Maybe?
Marc
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Saying it over and over again does not make it so.
What makes you think the apology would have to be given to someone? Would it not be a statement that EVERYONE would be able to get meaning from?
This is a stupid analogy, but here goes: If you were to accidently kill someone’s grandparents, would you not apologize to them? Especially if you admit that by killing them you caused damage to the family?
Most importantly: WHAT HARM COULD IT DO TO JUST SAY SORRY!!
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I don’t know about the “of course”. Nothing I have said on this thread has been shown to be wrong or untrue.
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I don’t see it that way but it might be because I have a different idea of what it means to be a hypocrite. We’re just going to have to agree to disagree. I don’t think merely abolishing something is the same as admitting you were wrong. But like I said, it’s not something I’m crying over.
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Again, saying it over and over again doesn’t make it so. Even if you do have a degree in history.
Mentioning Dr. King’s dream is a tired cliche now? Since when? I don’t recall seeing many mentions on the board. Could you show me a few threads with the cliched usage you are referring to? Maybe I mentioned his dream because it’s a really important goal that I don’t think we as a society are working hard enough to achieve. I don’t think that this lawsuit is helping is all I’m saying. Obviously you disagree.
It’s just that when I first heard about this suit, my first reaction to it was that it was all about what us white folk did to you black folk, so of course I got defensive at first. Is that the right reaction? No. Is that what the suit is really about? Not really. But the fact that I reacted that way, right or wrong, tells me that a lot more people probably reacted the same way, right or wrong. And that can’t be a good thing. Oh, right you mentioned that “concern over agitating the white folk” is unimportant. But, it sure isn’t helping race relations is it?
I never said that you should forget about what happened to your ancestors. Where did I say that? I specifically said that we should not forget it. What I think should be let go of is anger about it, not the memory of it, since there is noone alive to be angry with.
Well, it certainly isn’t saying that it is right. If something is being done, and the government takes steps to stop it and make sure that it won’t happen again, isn’t it intrinsicly implied by the government that said action is/was wrong?
Why would you abolish something that you didn’t think was wrong?
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Find me someone who was a slave in the United States and I will stand corrected.
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Because an aplogy has no meaning if it isn’t made to someone. If I say “I apolgize for…” then I have to be apologizing to someone.
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I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree. That’s ok, happens all the time.
Again, show me a living slave the government can apologize to.
Marc
Ah, but if you were unable or unwilling to file such a suit, could your great-great-grandchildren do it on your behalf?
A slavery reparation lawsuit screams ex post facto violation to me. Just as it is unfair to imprison someone for committing an act that at the time was not against the law, I see no value in punishing a corporation (and seizure of wealth and assets is punishment, bloodless though it may be) for something that a predecessor did. This is altogether different from reparations sought and gained by Holocaust survivors and Japanese internees. In those cases, many of the victims were still alive (and in fact, a number of them are alive today). There were living breathing people who could describe what had been done to them and could display physical, psychological and financial injury. The plantiffs of this lawsuit can’t claim personal injury of any kind; just a general dissatisfaction with their social standing. There are means of addressing this politically. They can elect politicians who support their aims; they can gather and deliver petitions; they can get favourable propositions on the ballots. Using the courts is an abuse.
If you ever buy a old house, you’d better pray no-one was injured in its construction. 30 years from now, that person’s great-grandchildren might come to collect. It won’t matter that you had nothing to do with the injury, which happened well before you were born. The fact remains: you own the property now and they want a piece of it. What legal recourse will you use to defend yourself? If the reparation lawsuit(s) go through, “I wasn’t even there” apparantly won’t cut it.
The phrase “forget and move on” is unquestionably a poor choice of words. A better statement would be “don’t forget, but still move on”. The point is that Americans are not trying to cover up or ignore the past. They are doing a good job of remembering. Our schools teach a great deal about slavery, and our country has numerous museums, monuments, and historic sites dedicated to remembering slavery (many of them paid for by the taxpayers, I might add). What people like me believe is that people shouldn’t let their entire existence be defined by the fact that their ancestors were slaves. Considering question such as black underachievement in schools, it’s ludicrous to assert that aftereffects of slavery are what’s causing this problem. People’s time would be spent better if they tried to understand and fix the problems that are actually holding black students back.
So you want me to provide a cite on how many times I’ve heard references to Dr. King’s dream? I’d be searching all night, buddy.
It wasn’t a crack on you specifically or on Dr. King. But actually, I do get a bit tired of “Dr.King’s dream” being touted out at every corner, by conservatives and liberals alike. How do we know how Dr. King would feel on the issue of slave reparations? The guy was much more a radical than the mainstream would have us to believe, and I’m confident he wouldn’t be on the “forget it and move on” side.
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Well at least you’re being honest. But I think you’re exaggerating the effect this is having on race relations. Most people are pretty ignorant about the issue of slave reparations, black and white.
I also disagree that it isn’t a good thing that people’s reactions are coming to the surface. Maybe confronting those reactions head-on can help us in our understanding of race and racism.
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I understood what you were saying. Don’t forget but let go is what you were saying. Forgive but don’t forget.
What I was trying to express was that I can’t just “let go” if letting go means having no feelings about the issue. When I think about slavery, my emotions run the whole gamut, from sadness to anger. Just as when I think about other tragedies committed by humans, I feel the same emotions. It’s even more tender when I think of slavery since my ancestors WERE slaves. To me, it’s not fair to ask me or anyone else to let go of those emotions just because it’s easier for you to move on. I don’t harbor any resentment for anyone living today regarding slavery, but that doesn’t mean my fervor about the subject is groundless or useless.
Some people funnel their energy into fruitless legal pursuits, while most people do other things. I fall in the latter category. Believe me, I have moved on.
It’s a DAMN stupid analogy, but I’ll put a spin on it, anyway:
If you knew your grandparents had killed someone else’s grandparents, would you aplogize? How about your great-great-grandparents? Somewhere in my family tree, somebody must have killed somebody else. If I knew the details, would I be morally obliged to track down and apologize to the descendants of the victim of a crime that took place before living memory?
Anyhoo, if you need an apology, here goes:
I’m sorry.
Oh, wait a sec, I’m Canadian. Hmmm. Even if that flat, empty apology came from an American, would it help? Let’s say it came from the governor of Alabama, would it help? Let’s say the President slammed his forehead on the floor nine times in kowtow deference to every slave descendent, would it help? It’s easy to demand an apology, but I’m concerned that no apology will ever be sufficient (how do you decide when someone has apologized enough? Don’t they become hostage to your forgiveness?) and once the apology process begins, there’s no clear ending except when the alleged wrong-doer finally says “I’ve apologized enough. If you’re still not satisfied, tough.”
Please be so kind as to define exactly what kind of apology would be satisfactory. When demands are vague, they don’t deserve to be met.
you with the face, so you’re saying that by paying reparations everthing will be Back to The Way Things Should Be ™ ? This is my biggest concern with Reparations. Things won’t change in the least. In fact, I’d be willing to bet things will get a lot worse. By paying “reparations” the so-called “oppressors” and their agents won’t have to hear about oppression again ? It just goes away ? If not, what do Reparations accomplish ?
If I assume for the moment that the blacks in America are owed something for their ancestors oppression I would much rather see Reparations in the form of college tuition credits or an infusion of resources into schools. This would be the only settlement that I would endorse.
If I may, I could not help but be reminded of a song by a straight-edge punk band, Minor Threat
I’m about to give up here, but you’re confusing institutions–like the fed government–and individuals. Unlike individuals, institutions exist in perpetuity. So the bad things they did way back when are not suddenly erased when a new president takes office.
This is why interned Japanese-Americans were able to settle with the government in 1998, even though Clinton’s administration was not responsible for their imprisonment.
I told you it was stupid analogy. But I was hoping to help MGibson see my point that just because direct victims are dead doesn’t excuse someone (or something) from issuing an apology.
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This is got to be the most frustrating post I have read all day. Argh. I’m going to bed.
IMO, there is one very good reason for not apologizing; as MGibson has pointed out, the minute it happens, Johnnie Cochrane sues for $10 million billion. IANAL, but my understanding is that apologies amount to an admission of guilt. The ungodly sum of money involved in a suit against the government, the utter impossibility of a “fair” settlement, and the unbelievable animosity the money would stir up would rip the country apart like nothing since 1865.
One more bit of common decency lost because of greedy lawyers and our litigious society.
Wellllll…it hasn’t exactly been one president that has taken office since the 13th Amendment was ratified, more like 25 or 26. And if individuals don’t exist in perpetuity, then who exactly is deserving of the reparations?
Uh, no, their claim had merit because people who had suffered were (and are) still alive, just as any living person in the U.S. can claim damages in the civil courts. I would also grant that a person who was not alive at the the time of the internment might have a claim if their parents suffered through it and as a result, the child’s life was affected by his parents’ depression and post-traumatic stress disorder, but removing the issue by several generations to the point where the claimants have no direct link to the suffering is a stretch the courts should not tolerate.
Define “bed”.
Just kidding.