…No, I agree with this reading. They, of course, don’t need to provide a person with no arms a way to do curls or make a treadmill for people in wheelchairs. But people in wheelchairs do have control of their upper bodies (to some degree) and the gyms need to provide them with a way to exercise these muscles.
No, the gym does not.
And not all disabled people are in wheelchairs. The blind would be able to do lats at your gym.
The applicable sections of Title III, general guidelines and opinions issued are very clear. There is a presumption that the disabled person would be physically able to use the equipment, and in a manner that is not destructive to the equipment or creating a danger to the disabled person or others. Look on the ADA website if you don’t believe me. Section 206, 236.1 and 1004.
No one is required to renovate, buy new equipment or modify existing equipment to suit anyone.
Exercise machines and exercise equipment shall not be required to comply with 309.
This is 309:
309 Operable Parts
309.1 General. Operable parts shall comply with 309.
309.2 Clear Floor Space. A clear floor or ground space complying with 305 shall be provided.
309.3 Height. Operable parts shall be placed within one or more of the reach ranges specified in 308.
309.4 Operation. Operable parts shall be operable with one hand and shall not require tight grasping, pinching, or twisting of the wrist. The force required to activate operable parts shall be 5 pounds (22.2 N) maximum.
EXCEPTION: Gas pump nozzles shall not be required to provide operable parts that have an activating force of 5 pounds (22.2 N) maximum.
Cite?
Seriosly. I think most people will back me up on this. When you start throwing words around like ‘need’ and ‘must’ you’re going to have to give us some Michigan Statutes to back them up. Honestly, when you say that 'gyms need to" and “they must offer” what you really mean is “I want them to”. Now, that’s fine. You are totally 100% allowed to want someone to do something. You can want the health club to purchase something. But when they decline to do it, that’s the end of it. You can try to come up with a compromise.* But what you can’t do is say that they MUST provide you with some form of equipment. Unless you can have something to back that statement up with, you’re doing little more then whining. You remind me of college kids who say things like “A cop has to tell you if he’s a cop” or “You have to give us a 30 minute break, it’s the law” but have never actually read the relevant law.
Jaime, I honestly suggest you start reading the law and picking through the ADA site. It’s not that difficult, every statute website that I’ve looked through typically has a search bar that usually works pretty well. You just have to make sure you understand what you’re reading and always go back to the beginning of each section and understand the definitions before you start making assumptions about what words mean.
*Not that we need you to start another thread on the subject, but a good thread might have been “I’m would like my health club to purchase this piece of equipment, but they don’t want to, can anyone help me find a solution to it?”
You might get answers like.
1))Find out WHY they don’t want it.
a)Is it because of space? Is there something unused that they could sell to make space?
b)Is it because of money? Perhaps there’s something you could do. Maybe you could offer to raise some money yourself if they’d match you dollar for dollar. Or ask to sit in on a grant process to try to get federal money for it (honestly, a wheelchair bound bodybuilder would probably help the cause). Or maybe you could drum up some more members who would be willing to use it.
2)Tough
3)Purchase your own and use it at your leisure.
4)Vote with your money and join a club that does have one
This is an honest question and not snark. (It’s really sad we have to disclaimer these things…)
Doesn’t providing you with curl weights do that?
One other thing, we keep talking about “handicap accessible” and you [Jaime] keep saying that it’s silly for me to say that the ADA is only saying that they have to provide access TO the equipment. Sure, it’s silly, but it’s the law, so, yeah can’t do much about it.
Anyways, for the life of me, I can’t find a legal definition of “handicap accessible” anywhere. The closest I’ve found is something on wiki that says accessible shouldn’t be confused with usable, but there wasn’t any footnotes to back that up, so I’m leaving it alone. From what I’m reading (or rather, not reading), 'handicapped accessible" isn’t a legal term but rather something we, laymen, just sort of use.
Here’s what I found in 20 minutes of poking around…
This page (note the .gov suffix) defines Accessible as “Describes a site, building, facility, or portion thereof that complies with these guidelines.” I’d like to add in here that if the the element needs to be ‘usable’, such as a sink, toilet, outlet, stairs etc , it’ll be included the part of the code the describes what it takes to get that element into compliance.
This is a 2002 guideline, the 2010 Safe Harbor Act (I give up, I’m calling it an ‘act’) as we’ve seen only states that they need to provide a clear path TO the machine. Therefore, once that’s done, the machine, based on the definition about will meet the guideline and therefore be “accessible”
Also worth noting is this page which in the very first section, right after the table of contents (34.601 (a)) says “…that are readily accessible to and usable by individuals with disabilities.”
If Jaime’s definition of “Handicapped accessible” (which doesn’t seem to exist as a legal phrase) included ‘usable’ it wouldn’t have been mentioned as a separate part of the sentence since it would be redundant. Codes/Statutes typically aren’t redundant.
Jaime, I’ve done my homework on the subject, I’ve quoted the Safe Harbor act over and over, I’ve showed you that Handicap accessible doesn’t imply handicap usable, I’ve proven to you that the health club is not in violation of any code whatsoever.
If you feel differently, I expect cites. Real cites. Links to statutes, ADA guidelines or standards, things ending in .Gov (as opposed to someone’s opinion, which I seemed to run into from time to time while doing this).
To that I’d just repost this posthttp: “Perhaps none (being laws violated). Like I said, they have considered themselves community leaders in this area for decades. Technically, they may not be violating laws but they are violating the care they supposedly have for those with different needs. Under their current operating standards, at HHFC, which is a place which supposedly caters to the physical and medical needs of the disabled, a disabled individual is not able to obtain a proper or adequate physical fitness regimen. And this is due to nothing more than the management’s unwillingness to furnish the establishment with a modest amount of handicap-accessible equipment.”
I admit no laws may be being violated. But everything Hurley stands for is being violated. Everything they purport to be is window dressing and lip service. I had contact with the mediation firm today. All I can do is go ahead and try to amend this situation. The disabled should be able to workout at a fitness facility that claims to care about the physical needs of the disabled. If this turns into a dead end for me, then so be it. But I did what I could.
Here’s their mission statement "The Hurley Health and Fitness Center provides comprehensive programming, education and fitness in a professional, medically based, high quality, and service oriented facility to allow members the opportunity to achieve their maximum potential in the areas of health, fitness and well-being. "
It doesn’t say anything about helping disabled people or people from all walks of life or the less fortunate or providing a wide range of equipment or being handicapped accessible or anything like that.
I suppose what it comes down to is that you don’t seem to be wrapping your head around the fact that they simply aren’t going to run out and buy a piece of equipment because you want it. They have the right to say no. It’s not personal, it business. I assure you, if they felt they could make more money (ROI) on it, they’d bring it in. So you go to a new club that does have the equipment that you want, and when you decide you want a PowerFit 3000 and they don’t get it for you are you going to start all over with this?
Mission statement or no, if you knew anything about Hurley, Flint and Hurley Health and Fitness Center personally, you would understand my point a little clearer. They serve the needs of the disabled; as long as those needs are convenient and don’t require any sort of action or accomodation of any kind (obvious sarcasm). And again, it’s not about what I personally want to have for my individual workouts. It’s the fact that no wheelchair-bound individual can get a proper fitness training session here.
Ya know, you don’t have do be a jerk about it. Why would I know anything about it. I’ve never heard of it until a few days ago, but as usual you’re acting like everyone should know about everything that involves you.
This still doesn’t mean they have to buy a new piece of equipment just for you. Big deal, they’re missing one thing that you want…move on. If they really do serve the needs of the disabled, I’m sure they have lots of other things you can use. Maybe they cater to the needs of the disabled, just not the disabled body builders. If they don’t then why were you with them for the better part of a decade?
I wasn’t trying to be jerk. I just meant if you were familiar with the area and the hospital network at all, you’d understand.
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&drKey=1259&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fboards.straightdope.com%2Fsdmb%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D621800&v=1&libid=1314417837084&out=http%3A%2F%2Fhurleymc.com%2F&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fboards.straightdope.com%2Fsdmb%2Fforumdisplay.php%3Ff%3D5&title=JamieMcGarry%20-%20Wheel%20yourself%20on%20down%20here%20-%20Straight%20Dope%20Message%20Board&txt=Hurley%20Health%20and%20Medical%20Center&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13144180360143
The very reason I was there for the better part of a decade was because they were the only gym that provided an upper-body ergometer, which is better known as an arm-bike; which is pretty much all I can do for cardiovascular exercise (swimming is out on account of my torn rotator cuffs). This is a machine that is typically found in hospital and rehab settings, as it is used to rehab shoulder and various arm injuries as well as provide cardiovascular exercise while recuperating from lower body injury. However, due to HHFC’s medical foundation, this was a part of their regular gym equipment. So, I stuck it out through the difficulties.
My entire difficulties with HHFC center around one person. I mentioned this person’s name in another thread (and it was subsequently deleted) and that was a mistake on my part, I shouldn’t have done that. I don’t hold the institution or organization as a whole responsible for the reluctance and refusal to delegate the couple of thousand dollars necessary to provide the gym with a quality, versatile, one-size-fits-all “personal trainer” type adjustable machine, like the ones I’ve posted links to earlier in this thread. I blame the manager. It’s not about me not having some particular machine that I want. PLEASE stop accusing me of this. It’s about the disabled being able to workout at this fitness facility that is part of a hospital network that caters to the needs of the disabled. If those with disabilities can’t go somewhere like Hurley Health and Fitness to workout, where in the world could they??
Given that they are not suitable to your needs and/or desires you are completely able to not patronize their establishment. You cannot use the force of the government to make them become the gym that caters to you.
You can however, start a gym in your area that specializes in equiptment for those with disabilities. You can purchase all of the equiptment that would be accessible to everyone and every disability and make a killing because clearly there is a demand for and lack of this service.
Jamie, could you answer #125 please?
Doesn’t providing you with hand weights provide a way for wheelchair users to exercise their upper body?
Depending on how strong the person is(and don’t forget jamie is a bodybuilder) and the specific exercise, getting dumbbells into position may not be possible from a wheelchair.
Jamie is looking to do pulldowns/pullups. I’ve never been a ‘workout guy’ but I’ve done enough pull ups and curls to know that the two exercises work different muscle groups. The biggest difference being that a pullup or pull down is going to work the lats and deltoids (hence the lat-pulldown that Jamie wants to be able to do). Bicep curls don’t work out the lats, at least not to the extent that a pullup or pulldown does. I would assume a curl only works out the lats just due to working out the core muscles in general but it’s not going to build them up in any significant way.
Of course I could be wrong, this is just based on a couple of rounds of P90X and what’s sore the day after doing pull ups vs curls. My lats aren’t sore after doing curls.
Also, another thing. Free weights, if you hold them over your head and bring them down in a similar motion to a pull down are going to provide the opposite force as a pulldown machine. With a weight, you’re fighting to hold it up, with a machine you’re fighting to pull it down.
Jamie, something you might consider is getting a freestanding pull up machine for yourself. Actually, most of those machines are kind of tall and probably won’t readily accommodate a wheelchair but a welder could easily make something for you. I’m thinking a bar that’s just within reach when seated and your arms are fully up in the air and your back is straight and the legs angled out so as not to get in the way when you get into place. It could probably be made for a few hundred dollars (or less) and work pretty well. A good welder could probably even make it adjustable and/or give it the ability to break down into parts so you can get it in your car.
The other option might be to find a freestanding, store bought machine that can accommodate your chair and have a welder shorten it (assuming it’ll still balance properly).
Of course, for anything like this, I’d strongly suggest a spotter the first few times you use it until you’re sure it’s stable enough and won’t tip over.
Oh, one more thing (now that I’m think about it). If it were me making this, I’d find grips for it first. It might be easier to have a welder use steel that is the right size for available grips rather then trying to find grips that match the size tubing that they used. Also, I can tell you from experience, you could get it powder coated quite cheaply so it looks nice and won’t rust.
BTW, you had mentioned securing yourself to your chair, is there a reason you didn’t lift yourself out of your chair when you did it (leaving the chair under you)?
No wheelchair-bound individual can get a “proper fitness training session”? Because of the absence of one machine?
I don’t believe you.
And I doubt that there is any legal standard that will support whatever definition you’re using for “proper fitness training session.”
FWIW, you’ve truly shot yourself in the foot (over and over) regarding your credibility. I’ll never take you seriously until I see two things: some recounting of other disabled individuals that use this facility as to their satisfaction/dissatisfaction with the facilities, and an explanation from the facility as to how well they believe they are catering to the needs of the handicapped.
My hunch is that the facility will maintain they do much to cater to those needs, and that other handicapped users are reasonably content with the facilities.
Of course, disproving both of those will only get me thinking you may have a basis on which to challenge the law, which at this time and come next year will not support your cause. I pity the facility, which in my mind is doing good things but is now having to deal with this nonsense.
I like you, so I am going to pretend that someone else wrote the above if you don’t mind.
Mr. McGarry, I’m sorry to say this, but I think you should not follow through with the mediation session. If you do, the only outcome I can see is a finding as a matter of law that the health club has not violated any provision of the ADA. It’s only my opinion, and I am sure I don’t know all the facts despite this thread, but your claim seems like an abuse of the system to me, causing the gym to have to spend money lawyering up to defend against it. The right thing to do would be to formally withdraw your claim and apologize; this is not just polite, but may actually save you from being named in a lawsuit.