Who said it did?
You should probably keep this kind of stuff to yourself. The more thoroughly it’s explained, the loopier it sounds.
I allude to the stereotype that end-of-the-world types tend to burrow away with a crapcan full of firearms. (a la the Branch Davidians etc.)
And if this is so in this case, would this then be a case of the chickens coming home to roost.
I swear, you gun lovers are some touchy motherfuckers.
I’m quite sure that it does–but like I said, it wasn’t my intention to start some sort of debate of beliefs. In fact, all that is beside the point. The point is this–just because these people were churchgoers is no reason to be rude or callous about their deaths. They were having a simple, quiet, peaceful service–not hurting anyone–and then suddenly, seven of them were dead.
I have personally known some members of this church (though, as far as I know, none of the Wisconsin group) and they were warm and friendly people–not dark, secretive, or reclusive, as the implication sometimes is. I can’t see where they would deserve your contempt, just because you don’t agree with their beliefs. Dislike their teachings–disagree all you want. It’s your right, and I’m not here to nag at you otherwise. I just found it a sorry thing to be holding them up for ridicule in the midst of such a tragedy.
Inaccurate. The Branch Davidians were found to have fewer firearms per permanent adult resident of the compound than the average quantity owned by eligible adults in Texas overall. Legally onwed firearms in Texas number approximately 60 million (~3.5 per person); the number of guns found at Mount Carmel averaged less than 2 per person (and most of those were found locked away).
Us “gun lovers are touchy motherfuckers” because of stupid asshats who can’t bother to be informed by the facts.
That is simply incorrect. @ 60 adults killed & imprisoned over Waco, and some 300 +guns found there? I’m no mathematician, but I think that’s actually something nearer to 5 guns per “eligible adult resident” (or however you are trying to parse it). Said weapons included lots of illegally modified guns and military-type hardware like silencers and rifle grenades.
Saying that a few of those people didn’t live there “permanently” only means more guns for the people who did live there full time. Even if you DO count the 1- and 2-year-olds, you still have something like 2.5 guns per person.
Now David Koresh himself, he had bought I think well over 200 firearms. That skews the bell curve quite a bit, but really just reinforces the stereotype I mentioned earlier - that end-of-the-world types tend to burrow away with a crapcan full of firearms. Like the Branch Davidians did.
Then by all means keep pushing those buttons. 
Uh-uh. Your cite says 294 firearms (and one air rifle). Mount Carmel was home to 135 adults and children as late as February 1993. Between Feb 28 & April 13, 1993, eighty people were killed, 58 of whom were 18 or older. Twenty children were released from the compound along with two dozen elderly adults during the standoff. In addition, 11 adult Branch Davidians were arrested and tried subsequent to the April 13 raid. So, where’s that leave us? With 93 adult residents and 3.16 guns per adult. More guns per person than my initial claim (which came - and was mis-cited by myself - from this article written by U.S. Representative Ron Paul of Texas), but well under your claim of five per person.
Using the estimated 60 million guns and the census bureau’s year 2000 number of 15.88 million adults in Texas, we find about 3.75 guns per adult - or the general adult population owns about 19 percent more guns than the Branch Davidians at Mount Carmel.
Now, you were saying?
Oy… maybe the next freak will go out and murder a congregation of Quakers, or Reform Jews, or Unitarian Universalists, just so we can be appalled at Man’s inhumanity to Man rather than rag on the fallen believers because we assume their beliefs both religious and political bear some ironic connection to their deaths … :rolleyes:
/checks that this is The Pit
Why, yes. That’s exactly how my mind works. Harming other people is wrong. But that doesn’t make me feel bad to see less ignorance in the world. If it happened someplace that teaches truth, rather than someplaces that teaches xenophobic complacence, it would be a tragedy. I tend to feel the world is better off without such people, and would say the same for the killer. You may as well ask me to feel bad if someone shot up 8 people at a KKK meeting.
So I heartily and without sarcasm second “Must have been God’s Will!” Thank You Jeebus! Please bring the rest of your flock home!
Why, I was saying that less than 2 guns per person at Waco was wrong.
I can see where our data set differs - you’ve included everyone. All those that suddenly weren’t around anymore when things started getting sketchy with the law, and the elderly & infirm released during the siege. I count those that “stuck to their guns”, if you will; the “true believers”. Hard liners, dead-enders, end-of-the-worlders, whatever.
Like I said, I am not a mathematician and nobody ever got shot by the 59 percent of a gun which you are disputing here. However, I suspect the 1990 census data would more accurately place a 1993 incident in context, over your use of data collected after seven boomin’ years of Wild Bill Clinton.
Whoa. Even I wouldn’t go that far.
My remark was directed at the believers. If an event like this doesn’t make you question the sanity of your beliefs, you are truly, stubbornly, irredeemably self-deluded. I simply don’t understand how even a semi-rational adult can persist in holding on to a fairy tale, in spite of massive, gruesome, bloody evidence that it’s nonsense. If there is, in fact, a God, he’s one vicious, mean sumbitch, unworthy of worship. “The Lord works in mysterious ways,” my ass - that’s just a childish rationalization, an excuse for willingly suspending thought.
That doesn’t mean that I’d kill all the believers if given the chance, or that I want someone else to kill them all. But please don’t ask me to respect their beliefs. Their beliefs are ludicrous.
[QUOTE=Agent CooperThat’s exactly how my mind works. Harming other people is wrong. But that doesn’t make me feel bad to see less ignorance in the world. If it happened someplace that teaches truth, rather than someplaces that teaches xenophobic complacence, it would be a tragedy. I tend to feel the world is better off without such people, and would say the same for the killer. You may as well ask me to feel bad if someone shot up 8 people at a KKK meeting.[/QUOTE]
You inadvertently left out the words “My Struggle” from the title of your rather ignorant and disgusting post.
Godwin strikes again.
Yawn.
You inadvertantly did not read “Harming others is wrong”. Which is the basis of why I am offended by Religion. The gist of my post was not “Go kill people” it was, “Don’t expect me to feel bad that people like those are gone.”
You also inadvertantly missed “and would say the same for the killer”. I don’t hold humanity at large in too high esteem, so tend to not spare much feelings for the worst among us. People living in lies and enforcing them on those around them qualifies as “worst among us” to me. Violent people also qualify. Hitler sure as hell makes the list.
I hold Nationalism second to Religion on my list of Most Destructive Forces in Human History, so WWII/Holocaust is a shameful chapter in history to me.
I’ll take back the “bring the rest of your flock home” if it soothes anyone. Mainly tongue in cheek at the time, making fun of their fairy tale, but probably too mean… I apologize for that line. I DO mean to be indifferent to such death, I DO NOT mean to encourage it.
I’m curious where you’re getting the idea that these people who were killed were harming others. Your point seems to be that if somebody is harmful, they automatically deserve to die. Fine, think that if you will, but I think you’d have to first prove that these people in particular were harmful.
Yep. You did say that. And I admitted my error. You, however, went on to say “I think that’s actually something nearer to 5 guns per ‘eligible adult resident’” As anyone who has given even a cursory look a number line can readily see, 3.16 is much closer to 2 than to 5. And 3.16 is also to the left of 3.75, meaning its value is smaller.
Not even remotely did I include “everyone.” I included only the persons of the age of majority (and thus eligible to own a firearm by federal and Texas law) actually living in the Mount Carmel compound in February - when the BATF/FBI first began their little campout. These are, presumably, the persons who would have been around when the guns were being accumulated. It’s seems pretty reasonable to include the persons present at that time when calculating the number of average firearms, no? I’m certain that there were persons not permanent residents who also had a hand in the accumulation of these guns; I haven’t included them, because there’s no reliable way to determine that number. You, apparently only want to include the actual persons killed; you’re ignoring totally the 11 that were present during the final siege, survived, and were later put on trial. As well as the 24 elderly folks that got out during the standoff. To disclude these folks seems an unreasonable leap made through a wholly unsubstantiated evaluation of motive; one that judges the relative “dedication” of these 35 persons.
Finally, okay, 1990 poulation data it is. Here’s the 1990 adult population of Texas: 15,596,456 persons 18 years of age or older. The figure of 60 million guns in Texas came from U.S. Representative Ron Paul’s March 1994 article linked previously. So, we now have, wait for it, 3.85 guns per adult in Texas. The difference is now 0.69 guns per person more in Texas overall than accumulated by the residents of Mount Carmel. Using numbers closer to the actual dates of the events, we find more guns per person in Texas. We’re going the opposite direction of what you claim - at least for this particular apocalyptic cult. I don’t think it’s safe to make any broad generalizations about apocalyptic cults from a single instance, however.
Again, you were saying?
The fact remains that the reason the ATF went after Koresh in the first place was to serve a warrant and arrest him for weapons and explosives violations. He and his followers were preparing for the Apocalypse by, among other things, stocking up on weapons and ammunition.
The precise numbers are beside the point. The simple fact is that the Branch Davidians’ beliefs led them to the conclusion that there was going to be an armed confrontation with the forces of “evil,” in the person of the U.S government, so they got ready for it. It was a self-fulfilling prophecy, of course - had they not started stockpiling weapons and ammunition, the big, bad Government would probably have taken little or no notice of them.