Snow White: White?

In My Humble Opinion
1

So, this thread somehow turned into a discussion on how we define who is “white” - are Italians “white”? What about Hispanics? My experience growing up in the Detroit area was this, elaborated nicely by zweisamkeit. Basically, Italians, Greeks, and many other groups were (and apparently still are) considered to be not, strictly speaking, *quite *“white”.

And Hippy Hollow points out,

This leads to strangeness, like blond-haired, blue-eyed, pasty me being occasionally referred to as “half-white, half-Polish”. This was never meant or taken in a derrogatory way; all’s I’m saying is, if I ain’t white, ain’t nobody white.

So: is anybody white, in your opinion, and if so, who? And who isn’t? Is white a spectrum? Is there such a thing as “white, but…” or is it just binary white/not-white? And for context:

What’s your heritage?
What’s your phenotype (eyes/hair/complexion)?
Do you consider yourself white?
If so, have you ever been considered non-white by others?
If not, have you ever been considered white by others?
Where and when did you grow up?
What about Snow White? Sure, her skin was white as snow, but her hair was black as ebony. Then again, she was German. Thoughts?

2

I’m eastern European Jewish and have never considered myself anything other than Caucasian/white.

3

Hispanic or Latino isn’t a race. They can be mestizo, like much of Central and South America, white, like most Spaniards, Argentinians, and Uruguayans, black, like Dominicans and many other Spanish-speaking Caribbeans, or anything else.

As for your quiz:

Irish/Italian/German
Gray/Brown/Pasty
Yes
Not that I know
Sure
Oakland, CA, 1980s
She would be whatever she considers herself, but I don’t see why her hair color has anything to do with it. The prince of the Disney version, however, is of Necrophiliac ancestry.

4

I laughed at that thread a bit. Southern Italian swarthy looking guy here, and I guess I sort of got classified as white when a decision had to be made, but Italians (particularly Southern Italians) were definitely not quite considerred white.

My genes probably have more in common with Northern Africa/middle Easterners than Nordics.

5

What’s your heritage?
The short version: Northern/Western European. The detailed version: 3/8 Swedish, just under 1/4 English, just under 1/4 German, 1/8 Irish, a bit of Danish, and a little less French.

What’s your phenotype (eyes/hair/complexion)?
Hair: light brown/blond, depending upon how much sun I’ve been getting. Eyes: blue/green, depending upon the light. Complexion: Light enough that SPF 30 is a good idea.

Do you consider yourself white?
Yes

If so, have you ever been considered non-white by others?
No

Where and when did you grow up?
Born in 1985 in CT, lived there until 3rd grade, then moved to Singapore. In the middle of 7th grade my family moved back to CT, where I spent the remainder of my childhood.

Now the subjective part:

Around here Italians are definitely considered regular old white. Same goes for Eastern Europeans and Greeks. I’m not sure about others, but I consider Hispanics/Latinos to be neither white nor black, but something all their own.

6

Exactly. And neither is Italian - there are black Italians, pasty blonde Italians, and so on. And yet, I grew up in a culture where there was a common attitude that if you were Italian, Hispanic, or any number of other things, then you weren’t precisely white, *regardless *of what you looked like. For instance, I’ve often heard conversations like the following:

“Your last name’s Antonelli? Is your husband Italian?”
“No, I’m not married; I’m Italian.”
“Oh! With your blonde hair and blue eyes and all, I just assumed you were white.”

In this scenario, Ms. Antonelli wouldn’t take offense. She might even respond something like, “Yep, no one ever guesses I’m Italian, because I look so white.”

And you’d hear the same thing if her name were Vasquez. I mean, it’s patently ludicrous: she clearly *is *white. She’s *also *Italian, or Puerto Rican, or whatever else, but the two facts don’t conflict in any way.

And yet, for a lot of people, this causes some kind of cognitive dissonance. So I’m trying to figure out: if someone’s definition of “white” isn’t based on appearance, what is it based on? And if it is based on appearance, then how can a blue-eyed blonde not be white? Is it because the people of that nationality (stereo-)typically have darker features? That’s why I ask (somewhat jokingly) about Snow White’s black hair - if someone thinks a blonde Venezuelan isn’t white, then what would they make of a a raven-haired German? What’s the deciding factor?

Heh.

7

I am from Peru

Brown hair and eyes, light brown skin

Not anymore

Yeah

In Peru i was white

8

What’s your heritage? Lots of British Isles, some other stuff that we’re not sure about including but not limited to Italian and German, the German being probably Jewish but that’s anecdotal.

What’s your phenotype (eyes/hair/complexion)? Dark brown, wavy hair, very fair skin, blue eyes.

Do you consider yourself white? Nooo. I consider white to be a category that is meant to distinguish between the privileged in-group and the ‘other’. It’s such a wide category of ethnicities that I can’t see how it has any value scientifically, and I refuse to be associated with it sociologically. I always check ‘other’ on questionnaires involving race.

If so, have you ever been considered non-white by others? Nope.

If not, have you ever been considered white by others? Yeah. Pretty much everyone but me thinks I’m white.

Where and when did you grow up? Tasmania, in the 80s and 90s, at which time the vast majority of immigrants were still from the British Isles. Meanwhile, there were minority Italians and Greeks, and on account of Dad was from a melting pot suburb of Sydney and couldn’t deal with the vast blandness of the ‘anglo’ way of life, we were raised with a chunk of culturally-Italian and a lot of Australian Italian family friends.

What about Snow White? Sure, her skin was white as snow, but her hair was black as ebony. Then again, she was German. Thoughts?
Actually, I kinda groove on the Snow White look myself when I’ve got my hair dyed darker for winter. She’s my archetypal goth hottie.

9

My own experience is that White refers not to a race but to a general range of shades of light skin. Same thing for Black. And Brown. And Tan. And if it wasn’t so socially unacceptable, I’m sure it would work for Red. Yellow might not work because so few people have that yellowish/greenish tint to their skin, so it’s easier to just let it overlap with other colors

But that’s all they are to me. A description of color.

Oh, and I’m Irish/Native American. But I’m also extremely pale, as I don’t get out in the sun much. Think Conan O’Brien skin, but with dark hair.

10

I’m half Norwegian, half Scots-Irish.

loose curls/wavy dark hair, some freckles but I tan pretty easy. Green-hazel eyes. Big Schlong. I wish.

Pretty normal lookin’ white dude, albeit with longish hair and a big beard.

11
  1. Mostly English but really a serious mix.
  2. Amber/brown/average, but my hair used to be blonde. It changed; no one is certain why.
  3. I guess
  4. When I was young I used to tan so dark I would look Indian, or I guess Hispanic. I was called a “dirty Mexican” or words to that effect on a couple of occasions. I stay well out of the sun now and can be somewhat pale.
  5. Kansas, 1970’s.
  6. What about her? Homegirl needs to take her life into her own hands and kill the witch herself. I have some books she can read if she’s unclear on the concept.
12

Obviously based on what was said in the other thread, I am right there with you. My Italian half is a very dark Southern Italian set- you can see how dark (or, apparently, naturally orange :p) I am in the other thread and even with that, I am the lightest of my Italian family. I have green eyes, they all have super dark brown-almost-black eyes. My hair is Medium-dark brown, they all have black hair. I have a golden (orangey :p) skin tone, they are all super olive- that gritty, almost gray color.

So:

What’s your heritage? Half Southern Italian and half “Euro Mix” (Scottish, Irish, British, blah blah)

What’s your phenotype (eyes/hair/complexion)? Dark green eyes, medium to dark brown hair, dark, golden skin.
**
Do you consider yourself white?** Yes, because I don’t culturally identify with Hispanic people (even though I look like them) or anyone else, so I say I’m white. Though, when I was a teenager and would buy all those stupid teenage girl magazines, I’d have to buy the ones for Hispanic girls, so the makeup tips and such actually worked for me.

**
If so, have you ever been considered non-white by others? **Always. Every single day. I don’t exaggerate when I say several times a week a stranger will casually ask me what I am. It’s never rude, just usually a stare, followed by a genuinely confused, “what are you?” I live in a heavily Hispanic area (California) and it’s usually something like this:

Traditionally “White” looking folks (WASPs) always think I’m Mexican. Without fail, they always guess Mexican. When I go to the super redneck parts of town, I will without fail get “WET BACK!!!” and “SPIC!!!” screamed at me.
Mexican folks always say they can tell I’m not Mexican, but they then almost always guess in the following order: Puerto Rican, Brazilian, Middle Eastern, Half Black. Seriously, almost weekly, people ask me if I’m half- or part- black.
African Americans almost always think I’m Mexican, followed by some other kind of Hispanic.
**
If not, have you ever been considered white by others?** “White” is usually the last thing people guess when we play the Guess Diosa’s Race game. I mean, it literally comes after Middle Eastern and part black. Once people know I’m Italian, I’ve noticed something weird: while most people then refer to me as white, my Hispanic friends always dismiss that and say things like, “No, you’re Italian and that’s practically Latin.” I dunno. Just my experience.
**
Where and when did you grow up? **I’m 23 and am from Bakersfield, CA.
**
What about Snow White? Sure, her skin was white as snow, but her hair was black as ebony. Then again, she was German. Thoughts? **I know this other person like that. Clearly, she had vitiligo. Stop being an asshole toward people with diseases, jeez! :smiley:

13

In the U.S. at least, white is what you look like if no one thinks to ask “What are you?” or “Where are you from originally?”

But technically speaking, white is what you are if you come from European stock. If your origins come from the fringes of Europe (i.e. the Mediterranean), the more likely your whiteness will come into question. Even if you look Scandinavian.

This shouldn’t be all that surprising. After all, Egypt is in Africa but it’s not often that you hear people refering to these folks as black. But in reality, Egyptians and other northern Africans are comparable to Greeks and Spaniards with respect to their home continents. Who’s really black? Who’s really white?

14

My brother is as dark as Diosa when he’s gotten a bit of a tan. When he was a teen and worked outside in the summer, lookout! He’s got jet black hair too.

He and my mom have 100% of the family’s Slovak genes. I couldn’t be whiter or pastier or more German-looking.

My brother has a very boring first name and a very German last name. People he talks to on the phone at work would be seriously shocked to see him in person. heh

The only time I’ve ever known for him to be called out as another “race” is when we were at a friend’s wedding at a country club in Athens, GA. He had a spiffy black suit and a nice hat, and more than one wedding guest suggested he might be…Jewish?!

I don’t think he gets called out on his dark skin much here in Cleveland, because there’s plenty of other Eastern Europeans around with funky last names and varying degrees of olive skin.

15

What’s your heritage?

Dad’s family is pick-and-mix: Cajuns (aka: Acadian plus who knows?), English, French, Scots-Irish, all that. Mother’s is pretty purely German and Polish as far as I can tell.

What’s your phenotype (eyes/hair/complexion)?

Dark, almost black extremely curly hair and eyes. Does not come from Dad’s side: all his family are blue-eyed blondes. I take after my mother almost exclusively. Dad has slightly curly hair, as does my grandmother, but nobody I know in the family has such a tight curl as mine, about a 3B-C. Skintone… depends on the season. I don’t burn easily but I do tan without trying and I’m honey-brown in summer and somewhat pasty in winter and under my eternal slacks. I don’t wear shorts or skirts shorter than ankle-length almost ever. My skin has something of an orangeish tone. And then there’s my build: I’m short and stout, and even if I wasn’t fat I have elephant bones. I could probably haul a pig if I had to. I was bred to carry three mugs of beer per hand.

Do you consider yourself white?

Ayup. Heritage almost purely Western and Central/Eastern European. I suppose not everyone would consider Poles ‘white’ and I don’t really care.

If so, have you ever been considered non-white by others?

Hah! :smiley: Not by anyone to whom I explained my lineage. “Oh,” they say, “you’re… white then?”

I live in Texas. Texan Latino/as think I’m one of theirs – people speak in Spanish to me in the grocery store, and one girl I’d been through all of high school with didn’t realize I was not a Latina until my senior year. Black folk assume I’m half-black. My (incredibly white) mother was interrogated by a black serviceman as to my (incredibly white) father’s race and I had a pretty similar conversation with a black security guard. It’s the hair, I know, but my hair is way too kinky for Latina hair. I can get the half-black thought, I really do look the part, but I guess it’s the big dark eyes and living in Texas that gets people making other
assumptions.

Other white folks mostly seem to assume I’m white if for no other reason than I’m not obviously anything else and my pursuits are pretty exclusively Anglo. Let’s face it: most flavors of RPGs, historical reenactment, and scifi/fantasy/technogeekery are at least dominated by the pasty. Yes yes, I have had friends of all races in one or all of those pursuits and those hobbies are also almost exclusively male where I am not but still. I have had the shy question put to me by the occasional white person: rather, one person has gently asked “May I ask about your family heritage?” while most others I’ve known sigh with relief when I mention it – not relief that I’m white, but relief that they didn’t have to ask a possibly touchy question.

Where and when did you grow up?

All over, but from eighth grade on in Texas. Before that I hardly spent as much as a year anywhere except California.

What about Snow White? Sure, her skin was white as snow, but her hair was black as ebony. Then again, she was German. Thoughts?

Sounds like me in winter. Proof: this is me in very early spring trying to eat a stuffed Peep.

16

Whiteness in America is, for the most part, tied to how financially successful and/or assimilated to the prior white culture a given group is. This is contextual and transient. Hence the phenomenon of numerous Southern and Eastern European immigrant groups ‘becoming’ white. If anyone thinks the American conception of whiteness is actually fully based on particular phenotypes or skin colors (other than as prototypes) I would doubt their analytical abilities.

17

In answer to the questions…

What’s your heritage?

Ashkenazi Jewish.

What’s your phenotype (eyes/hair/complexion)?

Dark curly brown-black hair, brown-black eyes, skin rather olivey but definitely falling under identifiably ‘white’.

Do you consider yourself white?

I consider myself white in as much as I know I am identified as white by the vast majority of the world, and it would be disingenuous to claim otherwise, but in truth, I do not feel particularly white, as my heritage and experiences are divergent from the prototypical white American experience. This is an interesting duality to me. When with non-white people, my whiteness feels undeniable. But when I’m with all Anglo people (as opposed to Jews and other more marginal whites), I feel distinctly not white.

If so, have you ever been considered non-white by others?

Not that I’m aware of.

Where and when did you grow up?

Massachusetts, 80s/90s.

18

My brother and I have this disparity going, too, which I’ve always thought was kind of neat.

My mother is half Sicilian, 1/4 German and 1/4 Irish (and takes after her Sicilian side). My father is full Northern Italian (he was born there). My brother takes after my mother, has black hair, light brown eyes, and tans very dark in the summer – he has been told that he was not white before (by his Puerto Rican girlfriend, so there wasn’t a negative connotation…not that there would be, but it wasn’t like a bunch of Aryan dudes were harassing him or anything).

I take after my father. I have dark brown hair, black eyes, and I’m very pale and don’t tan – my dad doesn’t tan, either, even after working in the garden all summer. (In fact, when I was a little girl, a family friend used to call me Snow White because of my complexion, so that’s what I think about that. :)) I identify as white, not only because I believe Italians to be part of the Caucasian category but also because I’m pretty freaking pale and I use “ivory”-colored foundation, so…yeah, “white” is a pretty accurate description.

My brother and I grew up in the Philadelphia suburbs.

19

Scots-English, roughly 3/4ths Scottish, most of that Highland.

Pale skin, mid-brown hair (ginger beard), hazel eyes, burn easily, never tan well.

No, but only for cultural reasons. Fair skinned people here just don’t (IME) get called “white”. *Pakeha *or Palangi or European, but not White. I self identify as simply “New Zealander” and if pushed will add “of Scottish descent”.

I’m pretty sure I’d be considered white in the US – and have generally been mistaken there for English.

New Zealand, born mid-60’s.

Her original name is from Saxon isn’t it? Hard to get more WASP-ish than that then. :slight_smile:

20

I think this is at the heart of race, and comes to the conclusion that there never had been any such thing as “white”.