Can I use it on women who play coy too?
I think that’s only fair. After all, they’re part of the problem.
I just saw a news story that one of the men has turned himself in and been arrested. Of course, I can’t find the cite right now, but it was on a major news site.
The LAPD has identified at least two suspects, one of whom is already in prison for an unrelated assault on a “dependent adult”. Is that what you were thinking of?
How could you possibly know this?
Well, it is potentially knowable, at least within a margin of error.
However, some people say the* rape=power *meme is horse shit, with cites.
It’s definitely true that rape is often a crime of opportunity, and the number is supposedly over 80% of rape victims know their assailant. Moreover, it’s important to remember that in many (I’d suppose the majority, but I don’t have the numbers here right now) cases of rape, the person perpetrating the crime does not think he is doing anything wrong. Often as well, the victim of the crime may not be aware that what has happened to her is rape.
How is this possible? I think a woman would know ‘I didn’t want to, and he made me.’ is rape. Unless you’re talking about dead drunk unconscious, and even then, I think most women would know they didn’t consent.
I can look up the numbers tomorrow, but in a survey a large percentage of women described experiences which fell under the legal definition of rape, but were not aware that what had happened to them was rape.
For a personal example, I was talking to a female friend who mentioned her boyfriend had agreed with her he was going to use a condom, but had penetrated her without one, and yet she was unaware that was legally rape because he (eventually) stopped when she was complaining he didn’t have a rubber on.
Some women think that accepting a date implies consent, especially if her date spends a lot of money on her. Some think that being someone’s longtime girlfriend implies that she has consented to having sex at any time with him. And of course marital rape has been illegal for a fairly short period of time. It used to be that a husband COULDN’T legally rape his wife…when she said “I do”, then legally, she said “I will, whenever he wants to”.
1.) What do I think what’s about, exactly? I’m waiting with bated breath here to discover my own opinion.
2.) I don’t know how many more times I can explicitly say that I don’t think **Shodan **is saying rape is acceptable. Are you illiterate or just skipping everything I write?
Could you be any further off the mark of what I’m saying? This has always been about **Shodan **revealing himself to be absolutely loathsome by a turn of phrase that indicates his own deep-seated and perhaps even subconscious views about rape why rape happens. The very fact that he cannot comprehend these rapes, while he can understand the rape of a physically attractive woman, means that he is vile and disgusting, at least in my opinion.
You may disagree with my assessment, but if you agree with him that raping an attractive person makes some kind of sense, however twisted and unacceptable, while raping a mentally retarded person doesn’t, you’re probably about as fucked up. Which would, coincidentally, explain why you’re leaping to his defense. Nobody likes to think of themself as being disgusting on the inside.
You don’t like to think of yourself as being unreasonable, either. But you continue to demonstrate it by your statements in this thread.
I am curious, by the way, if you mean to equate “makes some kind of sense” with “can figure out how someone with mental issues gets from Point A to Point B even though I’d never follow those steps myself.” Because, as stated above, that’s how I took Shodan’s statement. And therefore, by your logic, any criminal psychologist is fucked in the head. Maybe that IS what you’re saying. I just want to understand it.
Ah, but I highly doubt that any criminal psychologist would say that a rape of an attractive woman makes some kind of sense but a rape of an unattractive one doesn’t. As I’ve explained repeatedly, it’s exactly that dichotomy that, to me, reveals Shodan’s attitude as being fucked up.
Again: Objectively, I have no problem with “‘makes some kind of sense’ [in the sense of] ‘can figure out how someone with mental issues gets from Point A to Point B even though I’d never follow those steps myself.’” I think it’s absolutely possible to study, consider, and hopefully come to understand rape without ever condoning it, excusing it, or considering it remotely acceptable.
It’s only when someone says that they understand the rape of an attractive woman but not of an unattractive one that my alarm bells go off: because that, to me, suggests that the person’s “understanding” of rape is necessarily rooted in the belief that rape happens when a man sees an attractive woman and just can’t control himself (i.e., rape happens not because the rapist is fucked up–in which case it can happen to both attractive and unattractice people–but because the victim in some way enticed the rapist, however unintentionally or unculpably).
I think I understand what you’re saying to a point, but I still can’t follow the leap I feel you’re making in the end. I think what I’m about to say is going to be repetitive, so I’ll put it out there again and we can agree to disagree.
I would think that in any rape, some type of attraction is a motive (be it attraction to physical beauty, or to having power over another person, or to violating laws and/or social customs, etc), and that mental illness (through lack of empathy or a desire to harm someone else) is the key. I certainly don’t think (and my limited exposure doesn’t give me reason to think that anyone else in this thread thinks) that the victim is in any way at fault for someone’s mental illness or the results of that person’s actions.
But when I look at the list of factors that I wrote above, there is only one thing on that list that I can relate to in any way whatsoever: attraction to beauty. Acknowledging that there is one recognizable factor in a whole host of factors that might lead someone to commit a rape doesn’t in ANY way lead me to excuse the behavior of a rapist or to misplace blame on a victim. Lacking even physical attraction as a motivating factor for a rapist makes a difficult-to-understand crime that much more incomprehensible.
The *what *is the disconnect Strassia referred to.
How about explicitly saying once that Shodan doesn’t think rape is acceptable, and we could go from there? Here’s one thing you’ve said:
(emphasis added)
This is where it breaks down for me. I can’t ever imagine a sane, healthy person looking at someone they’re attracted to and thinking, “I am going to have sex with that person whether or not they’re interested.” Therefore, ISTM that all rape must be equally comprehensible (with the possibility that you understand it because you’re a creeper or that you understand it in an objective way without agreeing with it or relating to it) or equally incomprehensible (you have no desire to explore at all why someone would commit such a terrible act). For someone to end up in the middle, I simply cannot see as anything but an indication of something really fucked up happening in the back of that person’s head.
So you think that I think that the motivation for all rapes is sex? Or you think that I think that the motivation for all rapes is power? Either guess would be wrong.
My apologies if my intent wasn’t clear. Here are examples of other times I’ve clarified my point:
My intention was this: I am not disgusted by **Shodan **because I think that he’s saying that rape is a-ok if the chick is a hottie (I don’t). I find him loathsome because the fact that he can understand raping an attractive woman but not an unattractive woman to me suggests that he is fucked in the head.
Consider if someone made the following statement:
“I can see, on some level, the desire to beat to death a gay man who made a pass at you. But not a gay man who was minding his own business.”
Would you also consider that to be acceptable? Why or why not?
I think you’ve worded this analogy badly.
Shodan didn’t say he could ‘see the desire’ to rape an attractive woman. He doesn’t seem like the kind of person who would see that desire. What he says is that he understands, because I assume he has biological urges like the rest of us, the desire. He is aloof from that, but he can see that if someone has a strong attraction to someone and that person is devoid of all decency, logic, and is essentially a monster, that such a person might rape someone. What these men did in the article linked to in the OP is so far removed from normal sexual urges that it isn’t possible to comprehend what they did.
Now, when I first read Shodan’s post, I thought ‘Yeah, I agree, but uhh…that’s not something you actually say, and doesn’t really need pointing out’. It is a very uncomfortable post to read, which is probably why you have a big problem with it. I was also uncomfortable with the idea that disabled people aren’t beautiful. I think that’s my only true issue with his post.
Why not? Homosexuality has little to do with understanding it; women express irritation at unwanted passes from men all the time. And probably more than a few people have idly wished for something fatal to happen to the man in question. So yes; it’s a inadvertent provocation of sorts - a stupid provocation to get murderously angry over, but at least I can understand the impulse in the abstract even if it’s on the level of someone murdering you because they think you have an irritating voice. Attacking someone who comes up to you and irritates you is just an exaggerated version of normal human impulses and something I find easy to understand in the abstract, if not condone.
Attacking someone who hasn’t interacted with you in any way is another matter.
Your entire post is negated by your hilarious inability to fucking read.
I think that once you’ve read this:
And get this interpretation from it:
Then you’ve lost any right to say something like this to another person: