So Bruce Jener is LGBT - Who gives a F*CK

[Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge]

@Urbanredneck

To be honest, I think Jenner is off his rocker as are others like him but since this is a social gathering, I would have just gone along with the flow and not turned this into any kind of debate since a social gatheirng is neither the time or place to get into debates. Especially one which might make some people mad.

So really, I wouldnt take this casual, almost accepting discussion as some sort of affirmation of transgender issues. People often never totally tell their true feelings in public.

You deserve a pitting. I am too lazy to do it, but I hope someone does.

[Broomstick]

You know, I’m not sure someone willing to hold back in the interests of keeping social discourse civil really deserves a pitting. Whether his opinion is wrong, offensive, or just different he is entitled to have it.

Sounds more like he’s agreeing to disagree in public, which to my mind is entirely OK. He’s not advocating violence, or ostracizing anyone, or denying them basic rights or a job, he just doesn’t agree with someone else’s viewpoint. He doesn’t seem to be trying to change anyone else’s opinion, either, at least not in this thread. If more people would adopt such a civilized approach to disagreements the Pit would be used a lot less frequently.

ETA: I will absolutely defend his right to an opinion or viewpoint, even one I find offensive, because that’s what free thought and free speech is. I don’t agree with him, but he has just as much right to state his thoughts as anyone else. I’d rather he be honest than otherwise.

[joyfool]

@Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge

You deserve a pitting. I am too lazy to do it, but I hope someone does.

Pointless, I’m sure. He always sounds like that.

[mbh]

Editorial cartoon from this morning’s newspaper:

Jenner Comes Out - Bokbluster.com

[grude]

@even_sven

There was a belief for quite some time that gender was 100% a social construct, but after some extremely unsuccessful attempts to raise kids as the other gender for various reasons, we have since discovered there is another piece of the puzzle, and that piece is somewhere in the brain.

It’s important to point out that gender identity is not about stereotypical gender activities. You can be a transgender effeminate man, or a transgender macho man. You can be a transgender girly girl, or a transgender tomboy. Gender norms and gendered activities is just this whole different scale that is separate from gender identity.

Basically, there are five things that relate to gender- chromosomes, physical presentation, hormones, social norms, and gender identity (in the brain). All of these can have ambiguities or mismatches, all of which are accommodated in different ways. We might, for example, give someone with ambiguous genitalia surgery, or give someone with under active hormones hormonal treatment.

There seems to be something really important about gender identity, in particular, that makes mismatches there really hard to live with. Just like the other kinds of mismatches, we have a limited but useful set of tools for making things a bit better.

Are you talking about the case of the guy whose penis was burned off in some bizarre accident during circumcision, and was then raised as a female? (and had a male twin)

I think it is obvious you can’t force gender identity or sexual attraction, so that was a disaster from day one.

However I think an experiment where you raised a group of kids in a less judgmental, less highly gendered environment could be interesting. I don’t expect to mold sexual orientation or self identity, but I do think they would be less stereotypical.

We’ll never get that experiment though, damn ethics!
Funny anecdote but I did some self experimenting with my son, I never discouraged him from playing with stereo typically female toys and would purchase one if he wanted it. The only two he ever showed interest in was a small toy princess carriage, that he played with like a car. And a baby doll in stroller, he dumped the doll and used the stroller like a car.

:smack:lol

[Una_Persson]

@Urbanredneck

That wasnt my point. My point was that in social gatherings a person is more likely to start debates over some issue. For example just this weekend I was at a sporting event talking with another Dad and he made a slight remark about a religious faith I just happen to have. I didnt confront him on it.

My point was that if you hadn’t, and you believed we were all off our proverbial rockers, I was going to invite you to meet one this weekend, since you live in KC, and see how off the rocker we are.

[Una_Persson]

@Urbanredneck

Also does such a person get their official ID changed like their drivers license and other ID?

Changing your name is a relatively straightforward process. I paid a lawyer to do it and it was done in 6 working days for $200. Some states, YMMV. Changing gender markers is more difficult, and typically involves proof of surgery. Some states have a grey area text of “has received the appropriate medical care to complete transition”, which many doctors will sign off on if the transperson has been on hormone therapy for at least a year and is at least working towards surgery.

Also lets say someone has done this change and goes by a new name (say Chastity to Chase as in Cher’s daughter/son). Someone calls them up on the phone and unknowingly says “Hi, can I speak to Chastity?” What would the person (now Chase) say?

You mean someone strange, or a friend?

When old acquaintances or family who had not heard about my change phoned, I would just say “I’ve changed my name, and let me start by telling you why…” When it’s telemarketers, I tell them they’ve reached “____ Consumer Law Offices, how can I help you?” If it’s someone who knows but makes a mistake, I either make a joke or gently remind them.

This really isn’t any different than anyone else who changed their name, or a woman who has changed her maiden name upon marriage. Actually, I tell a fib - I found that while most companies can handle name changes in records alright, some refuse to change a first name. My health care savings account people claim that it’s scientifically impossible to change my **first **name in their records. Next to them, the most difficult people to change my name and gender with were not the government, not financial institutions, but the Hilton Honors frequent stayer club. They demanded proof of surgery in the form of a letter from my surgeon - something even Social Security didn’t ask for. I sent them back a fire-and-brimstone letter instead, and they changed my marker without any more gruff.

I will also say that if Jenner has any sort of involvement in societies, financial institutions, organizations, etc. like I did, they are in for some work. I kept a spreadsheet, and to date I’ve had to change my name in nearly 150 places. And after 3 years, some are still pending.