And to add to what you said, the grassy knoll is right there, in the open. Had a shooter been there, he would have been just a few feet from where Zapruder was standing.
Not only did they miss JFK, they also missed the cars, and the motorcycle policemen, and the spectators up and down the street, and the buildings, and the ground, and everything else except thin air. Truly, they must have been the world’s most confused assassins, since they all had to have fired straight up. Perhaps they were attempting a ballistic trajectory?
This holds true for the grassy knoll and for every other additional location proposed for additional gunmen. To this day, no one has offered even a hint of evidence for the disposition of these wayward bullets. The conclusion is inescapable- their existence is purely fantasy.
I don’t, and I was plenty old enough to remember. I know I was at college, but I don’t remember any more specifically than that. I don’t even remember if I was on campus or not.
I remember the event, of course, but not exactly where I was.
Oddly, I remember exactly where I was when I heard of Robert Kennedy’s assasination. I was in the kitchen of my home. It may be that I remember this more because of the intensity of my parents’ reaction than because of the significance of the event (I was only eight years old). Actually, now that I think of it, I’m not sure if I remember the shooting or Kennedy’s death.
I realized that the last sentence of my post wasn’t clear. It should read “Actually, now that I think of it, I’m not sure whether I remember hearing about the shooting or hearing about Kennedy’s death.”
Regarding ear-witnesses and sound in Dealey Plaza:
On November 22, 1988 I was in Dealey Plaza. It was the 25th Anniversary of the assassination.
At one point, I and a bunch of other people were standing on the grass between the stockade fence and the north pergola. A truck was proceeding east on Commerce, across the Plaza from where we were. It suddenly backfired, and everyone around me looked directly to where the truck was.
Now, I will agree that the Dealey Plaza of 1988 was not the same as the Dealey Plaza of 1963, and there is no way the acoustics would have been the same. However, the thing about it is that the Dealey Plaza of 1988, if anything, was sitting in an area that was more developed than it had been in 1963, which means that there were more possible places for sound to echo, dissipate, be absorbed, etc. If anything, it should have been harder to determine the origin of a sound, but this was not the case. If anything, what I witnessed showed how easy it was to determine the origin of a sound.
The major problem in regard to the JFK Assassination and the aftermath was the Warren Commission, which didn’t at all come off as sounding credible, in regard to the Magic Bullet theory and Oswald’s “curtainrods”.
Great. Now set off the backfire on the sixth floor of one of the buildings so your observation will have some relevance.
Why the sixth floor of a building? The grassy knoll wasn’t as high as the sixth floor of a building, was it?
There is evidence other than the sounds that the shots were fired from the sixth floor. If you expect us to discount this evidence, you’ll have to prove that the sounds evidence is more compelling. By your account, sounds coming from street level do not create misleading echoes. Now do the same for sixth-floor sounds.
Most of the area is the same layout as it was in 1963: the book depository, courthouse, the other tall building on Houston St, the pergola, and the triple underpass, all were there then, so it should be about the same. But about your experience - you are saying that it demonstrates that IF a shot came from the grassy knoll area, that people would be able to tell where the sound came from. Maybe, but that’s not the point. We know that shots were fired from the sixth floor of the TSBD, and that almost all ear-witnesses thought all the shots came from only one location. The question is whether shots coming from the sixth floor can be reliably identified. And even if they can, there is the big factor of the psychology of it - to the people there, the Kennedy’s head exploding right there by the knoll gave the impression that that’s where the shots came from, even if people’s ears told them otherwise.
The Warren Commission made some mistakes, but the “magic bullet theory” was a good example of an investigation getting to the right answer. Even before our modern computer recreations, those guys figured out what happened with that shot.
And I don’t know what you mean about Oswald’s “curtainrods.” I don’t think there’s much disagreement that he took his gun to work that morning in a long paper bag, telling his friend that it was curtain rods. Are you actually questioning that?
Funny thing, the bullet only needs magic to someone ignorant of the seating arrangement of the car.
I don’t doubt what you heard and observed, but a sound echo is not as simple as that. Hard, flat surfaces reflect differently from rough or curved ones – flat ones bounce sound, rough ones disperse it and some curved ones can focus it for quite a distance. There can also be multiple reflections and it is possible for a reflection to be louder than the direct sound if the direct path is poor or obstructed.
If your ear & brain hear a sound coming from one direction, only intelligence can alter that perception of direction; there’s nothing about an echo that says “this is an echo”. The one thing we cannot rule out in Dealey Plaza is that an echo caused perceptions of multiple shots, and to someone with considerable experience with sound, that is a most likely interpretation. Although I have never been to Dallas, when I first saw pictures of the area, I picked out a hard cement overpass, a big wood fence and lots of brick buildings as likely candidates for sound reflection. It’s a lot different from an open meadow or a sandy seashore.
I am well aware of the seating arrangement of the Lincoln, but to be fair, the info regarding the car seating is a relatively modern development, within the last couple of years, isn’t it? I seem to remember seeing a special recently where this was discussed at length, but the question was answered by someone who programmed data into a computer, and predictably the computer gave them the answer they wanted because of the data they put into it.
My remark had nothing to do with the seating arrangement in the car as much as it had to do with the amount of damage CE 399 is reported to have done on both JFK and Connally, only to emerge only slightly flattened. As well, take it’s weight, add the weight of what it left behind in JFK and what it left in Connally’s wrist and thigh and there seems to be more lead than the bullet weighed to begin with.
Yes, but his friend stated that the package (not a paper bag, but a package fashioned from brown paper comparable to that used in grocery bags) that Oswald had was carried by him tucked up into his armpit. Oswald’s rifle, even when disassembled could not be carried in that way – it was too long, and still would have been shaped like a gunstock, which would have been impossible to mistake for curtainrods.
I don’t understand; curtain rods could not be longer than a rifle? A crudely fashioned package couldn’t easily disguise the shape of the contents? Both seem plausible to me.
I doubt that anything was left behind in Kennedy’s neck and IIRC most of the bullet’s travel though Connelly was through soft tissue.
Also, take a look at this video, which is a close-up of the Zapruder film. In the past I’d always thought Kennedy was hit while behind the sign but this close-up clearly shows that he and Connelly were both hit immediately after Kennedy emerged from behind the sign and it’s clear from the way both men react and the way Connelly grimaces that were hit at the same time.
On a side note, this version really makes me feel even more badly for Jacqueline. I had always been under the impression that Kennedy’s head wound occurred opposite her view but it’s apparent from this clip that Jackie had bent forward and turned somewhat in front of Kennedy in order to see what was wrong with his neck, and when his head was hit the skull flaps and gore exploded outwardly right in front of her face. I’ve never really cared that much for Jackie Kennedy, but still that had to be horrifying and to me it makes the strength and stoicism she showed throughout that day and the days that followed even more impressive.
Is it? There are plenty of contemporary photos of the limo, including some of the seats, showing Kennedy sitting quite a bit higher than Connelly and making the bullet path plausible.
It looks only slightly flattened because it was typically photographed from the best possible angle. It wasactually pretty smushed up.
You can see her mouth open, presumably screaming, right before she tries to clamber out of the car.
Curtain rods, especially in that era, telescoped into each other. Naturally, the inclination would have been to make them as short as possible, something that was likely done because of the way Oswald carried them, along his arm tucked up into his armpit. There is no way he could have carried the disassembled gun in that shame fashion, because the length of the stock and the barrel were too long to be carried in that way.
From the Warren Commission: “Frazier estimated that the bag was 2 feet long “give and take a few inches,” and about 5 or 6 inches wide.”
Sounds pretty small for a rifle, even a broken down one.
As to the carrying of it, the Warren Commission states, “Oswald left the car first, picked up the brown paper bag, and proceeded toward the building ahead of Frazier. Frazier walked behind and as they crossed the railroad tracks he watched the switching of the cars. Frazier recalled that one end of the package was under Oswald’s armpit and the lower part was held with his right hand so that it was carried straight and parallel to his body.”
Further, “In deciding whether Oswald carried the assassination weapon in the bag which Frazier and Mrs. Randle saw, the Commission has carefully considered the testimony of these two witnesses with regard to the length of the bag. Frazier and Mrs. Randle testified that the bag which Oswald was carrying was approximately 27 or 28 inches long, whereas the wooden stock of the rifle, which is its largest component, measured 34.8 inches.”
Strangely enough, the bag purportedly found by Dallas Police in the TSBD was 38" x 10.75" – much too big to have been carried in the manner Frazier described.
Then what was he carrying?
Gee, maybe it was curtain rods…
Then what happened to them? He didn’t leave the TSBD with them, did he?
My God…are they still there?