Okay, so I have a question here for people who have actually read the books (I will someday…) - this Deagol. Relation to Smeagol? Brother? Or just friend?
They were cousins. To what degree was never written down, as far as I know.
Gollum isn’t Vader. He’s a tragic, twisted creature who’s death is, at worst, a mixed blessing to himself.
Sorry, I suppose I should have been clearer. I wasn’t trying to compare the characters, but how an audience might feel for a popular character to die an ignoble death. Although, come to think of it, “Gollum accidentally falls over the edge while fighting” isn’t much better than “Gollum accidentally falls over the edge while celebrating.”
I loved the film.
One of the best scenes for me was when they were all back at the local pub and the locals were all excited about a big pumpkin.
Seeing the four of them together after all their adventures, not feeling the need to say a word…well, it put the phrase, “you can’t go home again” into perspective.
What a nice visual that spoke volumes.
As I have said in other posts, next year I will skip a mortgage payment and buy the entire set of the extended version of all three films, lock my door, disconnect my phone, and spend a glorious day watching the whole series in all it’s glory.
My predicition for 2004…the entire box set of LOTR will be the biggest selling DVD in history,
A question I asked a friend last night after seeing the movie again: Do you think Frodo wants to let himself drop into the fires because of remorse over his moment of weakness, or because he feels as if he can’t live without the Ring? The Ring, after all, still exists at this point: Frodo isn’t free of it yet.
Between viewings, I misremembered Sam’s line as “Don’t you DARE let go!” The word isn’t there, but I can hear it in his tone: He’ll forgive Frodo at lot, but not this.
Well I saw it last night so I’ll stick my thoughts here…
How long did that film take to end???
It had a really good ending with Sam and Frodo sitting on a rock, crying and saying what they really wanted.
Then they got rescued by some big eagles - fair enough, they get rescues so everyone lives happily ever after, I can live wih that.
Then Aragorn gets coronated - OK it’s called Return of the King, so we see him at his coronation, I can live with that.
The he gets off with the Elven bird - mmm, Okay.
Then he tells the Hobbits ‘You bow to no-one’ - woohooo! great ending - these dimunitive little hobbitsare held with great esteem and everyone is happy.
Then the Hobbits go home - like I care.
Hobbits go to the pub - getting bored now.
Fat Hobbit gets married - so? Why is this in the film?
Old Hobbit gets on the elf boat - we haven’t seen this guy for over 8 hours of film and I’m supposed to care if he goes to the elves.
Frodo gets on the boat - bored now, can I go home?
Fat Hobbit goes home - lucky bastard, at least I can go now.
So there you have my little review - a great film if you walk out 20 minutes before the end.
Blame it on Tolkien Tuco. His endings went on even longer than that.
My husband’s reading of Gollum in ROTK is that when Gollum collapses (in Shelob’s Lair) sobbing “The Precious made me do it! I wouldn’t hurt Master!”, he’s being reasonably honest- in Gollum’s twisted little mind, Smeagol (real him) isn’t responsible for any of the horrible things he’s done, except for killing Deagol.
That’s why the “Smeagol did it once, he can do it again”, bit in TTT.
But when Frodo responds to Gollum’s sobbing with, “I have to destroy it.”, Mr. Lissar figures that for the second time in his life, Smeagol becomes murderously angry, and that it’s Smeagol, not Gollum, who hunts them over the plains and attacks them at Orodruin. Smeagol, not Gollum, is driven crazy by the idea of the Ring being destroyed.
I think that’s interesting. Please excuse my comma abuse.
Lissla Lissar, that’s an interesting analysis - and spot-on, I believe. I read an Andy Serkis interview on TORn wherein he discussed the director’s suggestion that it should be Smeagol who was truly the evil one, capable of murder, even if Gollum seemed the meaner and nastier of the two.
Now I have to go and see the movie a third time just to catch this bit the way you saw it.
I didn’t mind all the endings a bit (just Bilbo’s horrid makeup, as I’ve posted before). I’ve seen it 4 times and so far no one has walked out early.
Saw Titanic again recently - great effects, but boy is that script awful. I don’t think people will be saying this about LOTR’s script years from now.
Tarssk and Miss Mapp (as well as Lissla Lisslar) made some thoughtful posts that echoed my feelings. Also,I think you can see the guilt in Frodo’s face when everyone’s bowing to the hobbits.
Questions for you dopers (these are mainly in reaction to comments I’ve seen in reviews and other Message Boards) - 1. Do you think the story would have been better if one of the main characters, other than Boromir, Haldir, Denethor had died? I’m glad PJ stuck with Tolkien here. 2. I’m so glad the focus is back on the hobbits. I heard complaints of not enough Legolas. Well, in the book he really is a minor character. 3. What do you think is the biggest reason these movies succeeded? I think it’s the total lack of irony.
You left out Theoden , but yes, I think so. But PJ stuck with Tolkien here and I can’t blame him.
On a related note, in one of the trailers I’m certain I saw the blond Rohan Knight crying his eyes out at something, yet I don’t recall seeing this in the film. He was dressed in full battle clothing, so I assume he was crying at the death of Theoden, but I’m sure it wasn’t in the film.
Can anyone enlighten me?
It was Eomer, and I guess it was probably a deleted scene of his reaction to Theoden’s death.
Or Eowyn’s apparent “death”, which would be reasonable to have in the film if the Houses of Healing sequence were restored.
Somebody should make a definitive list of all the things that are in the trailers that are not in the films. Off the top of my head:
[ul]
[li]Eomer apparently grieving over someone.[/li][li]Gandalf’s and Pippin’s confrontation with the Witch King.[/li][li]Hi, Opal![/li][li]Aragorn, RotK trailer: “He has gone unchallenged long enough.” I’m pretty sure this line wasn’t in the film.[/li][li]One of the early TTT online trailers: Eowyn, apparently in the Glittering Caves, shown hiding from an orc.[/li][/ul]
There were several Arwen shots in the TTT and FotR trailers that weren’t in those movies, but finally made it into RotK.
Something else that struck me in last night’s viewing (my 4th, btw): when Frodo and Sam are on the rock in the lava flow and Frodo is able to remember things again, many of the memories he mentions are specifically related to Bilbo’s birthday party. This was the last time he was fully free, and untouched by the Ring’s influence.
As often as the hobbits talked about seeing the Shire again, you pretty much have to show them returning.
I agree they could’ve lost Sam’s marriage.
This was really missed. It’s one of the greatest dramatic moments of the entire story: Gandalf trades barbs with the WK, the last confrontation before he leads the orcs into the city proper… and if to demonstrate Gandalf’s point, the Riders arrive, and the darkness starts to break. In the movie, this wasn’t played off well: the riders just show up at some point without the dramatic buildup.
Also, the movie established the character of the swollen-headed Orc commander, but we never saw what happened to him that I remember. My guess is that we’ll see more of him in the EE. Maybe they’ll even have the bit in where Theoden slays him triumphantly, only to realize that he is NOT the main commander of the enemy force. It would give Theoden something to DO in the film: some victory he can get before he is slain. In the film, he doesn’t really get any action that I saw.
I’m saying it right now. I loved everything but the script, mostly because it was so even. It was peppered with way too many overwrought cliches. Eowyn and Theoden at the end was a case in point. It was just painful. As was Pippin finding Merry on the battlefield. The scenes were SO close to being great but the words were often just plain stupid. How many movies do we have to hear these same lines in before writers think of something new to say? Even Tolkien’s words would have been much better: Merry asking whether Pippin has come to bury him is much funnier, sad, and more original than what the film gave. Every character runs up and announces just what they are thinking and feeling, instead of it being buried in more interesting lines that flesh them out. It’s just… amatuer.
And it unbalances things as well. In the book, it’s Merry who hears the kings’ last words, and it’s all the more wrenching because the king still thinks that Eowyn is alive, but Merry thinks her dead and can’t tell him before he goes. This would have worked much better in the film because of the symetry between Merry and Pippin developing relationships with both great rulers, so that the scene where they reflect in the pub has that much more weight.
In the movie, Merry loses out to Eowyn, even though he’s really sort of the more important character since he’s the one of the four we’re supposed to follow as the main characters through the movie.
They couldn’t leave out Sam’s marriage! Then they’d have to leave out the most important line in the book!
“Well, I’m back.”
Sorry, I’m Tolkien-geeking. I just read two-thirds of the Silmarrillion last night and I dreamed of Balrogs and the Flight of the Noldor. Sigh.
The interview’s on ToRN? Great. I’ll look for it.
I don’t think so. They’ve established Rosie well enough and mentioned the passage of time so that everyone would’ve figured out that they wre married with children when he gets back for the Havens.