Read it, weep, and get it out of your system so you can enjoy the movie.
SEVERE SPOILERS ahead, but not in a spoiler box
Screenings for ROTK began last night in Los Angeles for Guild members and (ahem) other interested parties. I didn’t write any of this (yes yes, I stole it).
More can be read in the original thread, here, starting on the 2nd page about halfway down. Needless to say, even more spoilers galore.
:eek: Noooooooooooo!
Whatever. I consider myself a student of JRRT’s middle earth, having read LOTR over 40 times, and Silmarillion over 15. And none of this really bothers me. I enjoy PJ’s films for what they are: someone else’s vision of what LOTR is like. I’m glad he’s sharing it, and so much of it is enjoyable. It’s not a problem. [sub]except for elves in Helm’s Deep, mutter mutter[/sub]
Wasn’t this shown in Galadrienl’s reflective pool to Frodo in the FotR movie? Maybe it’s in extended edition?
That was suposed to be the scouring of the shire.
Well, unless people were willing to sit through a 5 hour movie in the theaters, sacrifices had to be made.
That doesn’t change the fact that they are still wonderful adaptations and beautiful movies
The EEs keep getting longer and longer, and for the last one Peter will probably go all out. I’ll bet the Extended Edition will include much of what’s been cut out. I’m not worried about that.
I’m only worried that there will be some sort of backlash regarding the EEs and the Academy Awards. It’s easy to say that awards don’t matter, but really, don’t we all want to see the movie win all the awards it can get? At the very least, Peter for Best Director. He deserves it.
If people think that the theatrical cut isn’t the “real” movie, they may be less likely to vote for it.
Then again, the reactions coming out seem to be so positive that maybe it’ll win by sheer force of brilliance on its own.
WHAT?! WHAT?! WHAAAATT?!
Doesn’t that lead to an inCREDibly integral relationship development between Frodo and Sam and a HUGE character development for Sam?! ARE THEY CUTTING THE TEMPTATION OF SAM?!
There is some logic behind all of PJ’s decisions to date, in terms of the way movies work vs the way books work. Let me just try to justify some of Equipoise’s list:
Sarumman/Gandalf confrontation: I lament the loss because it’s such a wonderful, wonderful (and memorable) scene in the books. It was cut from TT for being anteclimactic, and I knew, way back then, that it would therefore not fit as a beginning for RotK – it’s the conclusion to the other story, not a beginning for this one.) I’m bummed, but I understand the movie logic. Books can have anteclimaxes, movies can’t … not well.
Absence of the Voice of Sauron is also reasonable. It creates a lot of suspense in the books because the reader has to wait for a while to discover how the Voice got the mithril coat etc. In the movie, where the action is intercut, there’s no such suspense and the scene (while dramatic) is thus easily cut.
Gollum’s sneak attack gives away too much, mainly Frodo’s warning/prognostication gives away the Mount Doom ending.
Elimination of funeral of Theoden, crowning of Eomer, and minor characters are not major losses, they can be assumed.
Elimination of Shagrat, Gorbag, and marching with orcs – I’ll have to wait and see how they work things out. There are several ways of doing the same thing, and frankly, the way they’ve depicted things, it would be difficult for Frodo and Sam to be disguised as orcs anyway. I mean, how convincing would it be? Visually, I don’t see how it could be worked out.
Faramir/Eowyn romance – They’ve put all the romance emphasis on Aragorn/Arwen, so the secondary romance is not critical. I’d think they could spare a line of dialog or a romantic look between the two, it wouldn’t take much, but there we are, I’ll have to wait and see how they resolve Faramir’s and Eowyn’s stories.
OK, my opinions. Books and movies are different – they do different things, they show the story in different ways, and no one should expect them to be the same. The movie will never be the same as the book, and vice versa. They can’t be, never, not for any book.
PJ has done a wonderful job of adapting the story so far, and I assume he will do the same at the end of all things.
Erm, it’s hard to say what that bullet point means when it says “no capture by Shagrat and Gorbag.” Does this mean that we do not see the characters of Shagrat and Gorbag haggling over the mithril coat? that we do not see them exchanging views on the course of the War, and how some of the big ones, aye, even the Biggest, can make mistakes? do we not hear them arguing about whether Frodo is really dead or poisoned?
Does their exclusion mean we are going to eliminate Sam’s ascent into the Tower of Cirith Ungol to rescue Frodo? You see, I can live without Shagrat and Gorbag in particular – just like I could live without Grishnakh pawing Merry and Pippin in search of the Ring – as long as the main character point is there. It is incredibly important for Sam to take the quest into his own hands and reject it in favor of rescuing Frodo. I can dispense with two minor characters and some dithering dialogue in favor of this amazingly important character development for Sam.
The rest – eh, I can wait for the EE DVD. I never understood why the Faramir/Eowyn romance was more important in the books than the Aragorn/Arwen one. I mean, I had to read the books several times before I knew who Arwen was, and she’s supposed to be the Queen of Gondor.
FISH
I know the Voice of Sauron bit was filmed because IMDB lists Bruce Spence (the gyropilot from the Mad Max movies) in the role. The theatrical cut will be glorious despite the cuts, and the EE will include all the footage that was left out.
The current Newsweek has a review of ROTK that lists what was cut.
Make that, IMBD listed Bruce Spence as the V of S, but he’s not there now.
Damn!
I was unable to finish ROTK. I found the books very boring. Nonetheless “The Voice of Saruman” is one of the best chapters I’ve ever read. Tragic that it’s left out. But really, think who’s Saruman. Christopher Lee looks and sounds evil. The suspense of “are our heroes going to fall for this?” wouldn’t be there at all. So I guess that’s ok.
It’s been hinted rather strongly that the Scouring Of The Shire will occur in the Extended Edition DVD set…
Actually, I’m fairly certain Jackson says somewhere – I think it’s on the FotR commentary – that it wasn’t even filmed, and Frodo’s vision in the mirror of Galadriel is the movies’ only tip of the hat to it. Ah, well.
C K Dexter Haven, great post!
This seems to be an attitude among book fans that I would think sets you up for disappointment.
If/then/or else mindsets will have you waiting to put your own interests into play, and will distract you from what’s actually happening on screen.
I don’t mean that people shouldn’t have tinges of disappointment if their favorite scenes aren’t there, and don’t have a right to grumble about them, but they’ll always be there in the books, and they may be in the Extended Editions. You just shouldn’t let the disappointment color your view of the movies, because what’s up there on screen is amazing enough.
With ROTK coming in at 3:20 (including credits) Peter Jackson has gone to the absolute time limit on this last film. I read that 3 hours and 20 minutes is the maximum that can be accommodated by DTS soundtrack discs without an intermission, and we know that theaters these days just don’t DO intermissions. Jackson probably thought about having an intermission, but there are too many negatives associated with it, not least is that it just takes you out of the movie and kills momentum. So to cut it to 3:20, he had to be brutal, and make even more enemies among book fans.
He did his best, and from all reports we’re going to be knocked off our feet. Er, chair.
Leave the book at home. Leave that notebook, that one in your head, the one that might otherwise be used to scribble down changes, additions and deletions, at home. Or at least, firmly closed with a rubberband around it. Enjoy what’s right in front of you.
The people who haven’t read the books but who do read the books because of the movies will discover these bits that you’re so fond of for themselves.
Err. Equipoise, I thought you started this thread for Tolkien fans to bemoan the cutting of their favourite scenes? Bad enough that it seems to be verboten to utter a word of criticism about PJ’s interpretation anywhere else, do you have to take that attitude in a thread you started explicitly inviting people to do so?
I don’t personally know any Tolkien fan who hasn’t enjoyed the movies. But I find it rather annoying that non-fanatics think that just because the movies are very enjoyable, fanatics aren’t to be allowed to discuss ways they think they could have been even better, or lament the necessity of cutting a few favourite bits.
Personally, I’ve known since I saw TTT that ROTK would have more material cut than I’d like. It was pretty obvious when PJ saw fit to leave out the last 8 chapters of the book that there was simply too much left to cover in another 3 1/2 hours. I only hope PJ reverses the distressing trend wherein the cutting was much less judicious in the second movie than the first. FOTR was just about right, imo. Cut out the inane wizards’ fight, replace it with Galadriel’s gifts, and reshoot Elrond’s council to replace the silly squabbling tone with one of greater gravity. Oh, and tell Hugo to try not to sound so whiny when he talks about humans. All in all, extremely good. TTT was much worse. Must have been 20 minutes or more wasted with the stupid warg battle/faux Aragorn death scene/dream sequence. Helm’s Deep was treated wrongly as the climactic scene. If I’d been in charge (probably a good thing I’m not, or non-book fans wouldn’t enjoy things so much, but that’s another matter :)) I’d have greatly de-emphasized and shortened that battle. I’d have avoided the pointless rewriting of the action in Rohan with Eomer buggering off away from the action, the invention of Theodred’s funeral, etc. I’d have left the actions of the ents after they leave Fangorn a mystery, so that there’s genuine tension after Helm’s Deep - the siege lifted, but Saruman presumably still in power, which would have allowed for the confrontation with Saruman, along with the lair of Shelob, as the climactic scenes, revolving the former and leaving the latter as one of the greatest cinematic cliffhangers of all time.
This would have made it possible to include a few of the more distressing cuts in ROTK.
But that’s just me.
And of course, I’ll see the movie, and I’m sure thoroughly enjoy it. But I can’t turn off the silent critic inside of me. There’s no off switch.
Things I really want to see most in ROTK:
Gollum’s near-repentance
Sam thinking Frodo dead, and taking the ring
Sam using the ring
Sam surrendering the ring to Frodo
I’m not sure how I’ll react if PJ messes with the above too much.
Of course, you’re right. I started this thread specifically for that reason, to get the shock of the changes out of your system. I didn’t say otherwise. I just gave my thoughts as to why I thought it was counterproductive to say “well if this isn’t in, then I…” because, then what? You’re going to be sitting there fuming. That’s why you SHOULD get it out of your system beforehand.
I know of plenty of book fans who despise the movies, because of the changes. I can only feel sorry for them.
Anyway, I didn’t mean to come off as trying to squelch discussion. I’m sorry if it sounded that way.
I didn’t mind elves at Helm’s Deep, i didn’t mind the changes to Faramir or taking the ring to Osgiliath, i didn’t mind taking out the scouring of the Shire… but one thing that really really really bothers me about the movies is the scene at Osgiliath where Frodo almost hands over the ring to the Witch King. I mean… hello? quest over, isnt it? “hey boss there is a hobbit in osgiliath and he has the ring!” The moment Sauron found that out he would have forgotten all about Minas Tirith and gone after Frodo, that just totally ruins the whole secrecy thing!