So I got a warning for asking for clarificaton of moderator instructions.

[SenorBeef]

This page has the relevant discussion

I’m trying to run a fantasy football league. Someone accused me of a rules violation and using my power of commissioner to enable that rule violation. That’s very serious and requires resolution.

Johnny Ace goes on and on about how he’s “going to war with me” and how he’s “a very formidible opponent in real life” and attempts to disrupt our league by repeating his accusations of cheating but not backing them up when asked to.

I was told by Idle Thoughts that I could talk about the issue so long as I did not use personal insults, which I did not do in subsequent posts. I tried to address the issue of the cheating accusation, as I am more or less required to do as commissioner of the league, and he tried to shut down that conversation.

He gave this instruction

@Idle_Thoughts

Knock it off. Take the personal stuff out of this thread. That goes for him and you as well. Take it to the Pit if you must, but take it out of this thread.

Don’t make another post in this thread unless it’s on topic.

I did not make any personal attacks after this instruction. I attempted to address the issue of the accusation of rules violation and harassment that followed it.

To which he said:

@Idle_Thoughts

Okay…
**
FROM HERE ON, ANY POST NOT ON TOPIC will be warned, no matter who it is.** This is the last note. Either put each other on ignore or take it the Pit, but the bickering ends right now.

Post at your own risks.

So at this point, I ask him what exactly we’re not allowed to talk about, since I have to deal with the issue of running the league and the accusations of cheating is a pending discussion.

@SenorBeef

Okay - I don’t understand what you want here, exactly. Are we not willing to post on this issue as it relates to his accusations that I violated a league rule? I did not include personal insults in the last post, and only talked about things relevant to the league going forward. If he’s going to continually accuse me of cheating, he has to either back it up (and we can have a discussion about it) or shut up about it.

I have to clearly know what’s off limits here.

And then I was warned. I was told to take it to ATMB, not the current thread.

So, as far as I can tell, I can’t run the fantasy football league, since I have no idea what I’m allowed to discuss now and even asking what I can discuss got me a warning.

[Idle_Thoughts]

No, you didn’t get a warning for asking for clarification. You got a warning for ignoring mod instruction after I had said four or five times to get back to talking about the topic. As I said to you in PM:

@Idle Thoughts in PM

I know you’re trying as hard as you can to twist it like you got warned just for asking for clarification, but I had ALREADY said many times, by that point, to you…to take any discussion about it to ATMB.
So no, you weren’t warned for simply asking for clarification. I know it and you know it…and if you want to try to make it APPEAR that way, good luck, because as anyone will be able to see, you were clearly told to drop it MULTIPLE times and take it to other forums. You refused. You got warned.

Here are places you were told to take any questions about moderation to ATMB: 1, 2, and a third time in PM.

I also had said (twice) in that thread that people were allowed to post in it as long as you stayed on topic, so there shouldn’t have been any wondering if you couldn’t run your game any more if you had read my notes (like this one).

[SenorBeef]

To be clear, my post that followed the warning to stay on topic was on topic. I am obligated as the commission of the league to handle accusations of rule breaking and potentially foster discussion about clarifications or proposals for rule changes. This post, which was on topic, spawned yet another mod instruction not to talk about it. But at that point since I was discussing something on topic, relevant to the league, and something I’m even obligated to resolve, I was baffled as to what he was telling me. So I asked for clarification - what exactly is it that I can’t talk about? I need to understand this warning better.

And I was warned for the last part, for asking for clarification.

[IvoryTowerDenizen]

If you don’t want a warning, don’t ignore what the moderator says to do. You were told so many times to ask for clarification in ATMB, which is what moderators always say. This is not a new or unusual instruction- if clarification was needed, open the ATMB thread.

You ignored the moderator and got a warning. Frankly, I think Idle should’ve warned you sooner.

[Idle_Thoughts]

@SenorBeef

So I asked for clarification - what exactly is it that I can’t talk about?

My posts in that thread were already very clear on that: It was to stop the personal bickering between you and Johnny Ace…something I had been trying to do for five posts in that thread. If you really want to play like you don’t know what I was talking about when I said “don’t post if you can’t stay on topic (I.E. not fight personal beefs (no pun intended) with others)”, then there’s really nothing else to say in this thread.

[Ibn_Warraq]

@SenorBeef

To be clear, my post that followed the warning to stay on topic was on topic. I am obligated as the commission of the league to handle accusations of rule breaking and potentially foster discussion about clarifications or proposals for rule changes. This post, which was on topic, spawned yet another mod instruction not to talk about it. But at that point since I was discussing something on topic, relevant to the league, and something I’m even obligated to resolve, I was baffled as to what he was telling me. So I asked for clarification - what exactly is it that I can’t talk about? I need to understand this warning better.

And I was warned for the last part, for asking for clarification.

And I thought I can be tedious.

[SenorBeef]

Okay, so I’m here now. What the fuck can I talk about and not talk about?

I am obligated as commissioner to resolve the accusation of a violation of rules. I attempted to do that. I was warned not to continue that discussion, to keep it on topic. Except that IS on topic, I’m required to carry that discussion to its conclusion. So then I get a fucking warning for just asking in that thread what I can and can’t talk about, so here the fuck I am. Tell me what the fuck I can and can’t talk about in the fantasy football thread of a league in which I’m comissioner.

[Idle_Thoughts]

@SenorBeef

Okay, so I’m here now. What the fuck can I talk about and not talk about?

I am obligated as commissioner to resolve the accusation of a violation of rules. I attempted to do that. I was warned not to continue that discussion, to keep it on topic. Except that IS on topic, I’m required to carry that discussion to its conclusion. So then I get a fucking warning for just asking in that thread what I can and can’t talk about, so here the fuck I am. Tell me what the fuck I can and can’t talk about in the fantasy football thread of a league in which I’m comissioner.

You weren’t attempting anything of the sort that I could see. THIS post was not what you’re saying you were “trying” to do here. That (linked) post was just continuing a bickering match with a poster you have personal sides with, and you were told to stop it…multiple times.

Now if that’s not the post you meant,…then please show me where you were trying to do what you say you were doing here. Because that? Was not it. That was a continuing fight that you had been told to drop.

[hajario]

SenorBeef was way out of line in that thread. Idle’s warnings were on point.

[SenorBeef]

@Idle_Thoughts

You weren’t attempting anything of the sort that I could see. THIS post was not what you’re saying you were “trying” to do here. That (linked) post was just continuing a bickering match with a poster you have personal sides with, and you were told to stop it…multiple times.

Now if that’s not the post you meant,…then please show me where you were trying to do what you say you were doing here. Because that? Was not it. That was a continuing fight that you had been told to drop.

He was repeating his accusations of rulebreaking, to which I was challenging him to back them up. He asked me why I was commissioner if it was a shitty, thankless job, and I pointed out that I’ve been trying to give it away for years. He accused me of escalating the situation, and I pointed out where I’ve just been trying to resolve it and make it end.

If we had a sore spot in the league - if we have someone who is going to accuse me of cheating, violating the rules, and use my position as commissioner to enforce that, that needs to be discussed to everyone’s satisfaction.

It seemed that Idle Thoughts thought such a thing was off topic even though it was something I was obligated to do. That’s why when he said not to talk about it anymore, I asked for clarification.

If I understand the situation, it was asking for clarification for what a note meant in that thread, rather than starting a new one at ATMB which may get me suspended. That was clearly the post that was warned, the one in which I asked for clarification.

Incidentally, if you’re going to suspend me, go ahead and consider it a ban. I’m not going to come crawling back because I was suspended over asking for clarification of a mod instruction so I can run my league. I suppose I might come back strictly to run my fantasy football leagues since that’d be a pain to do without board access, but that would be the extent of my participation on this board.

You can imagine how Johnny Ace is reacting all this. After he told me he was a “formidible person in real life” and was “going to war” with me and the whole internet tough guy act, he might end up getting me banned, and I’m sure he’s thrilled. Sure, let the toxic guy you know is trolling celebrate his accomplishment.

And if you’re going to say “oh, well then you shouldn’t have taken the bait and attacked him back” - I stopped that. After the first mod note about my insult, I did not insult him further, I only interacted with him in so far as it pertained to running the league for the rest of the year. I wasn’t attacking him, I was trying to fulfill my obligations to run that league. When I was told I couldn’t do that, I was warned for asking for clarification.

[Munch]

It seemed that Idle Thoughts thought such a thing was off topic even though it was something I was obligated to do.

You are obligated to the extent you want to be as commish. But I think if you take a few days away from the Dope and come back to this with fresh eyes, you’ll see you weren’t just trying to clarify Johnny’s objection - you were painting his complaint and, more importantly, him with language that pushes beyond the line. Get off the board tonight, Beef - you’re not doing yourself any favors.

If I have to commish next year because you’ve gotten yourself banned, my wife is going to kill you.

[SenorBeef]

You don’t feel as though a commission has an obligation to respond to accusations of rule violations, and accusations of abuses of commissioner power? If everyone else had chimed in and said “oh, come on, that’s ridiculous Johnny Ace” then I’d feel like it was resolved, but only you and RNATB offered comment.

I think you guys think I’m sitting here fuming, but I’m not at all. I’m trying to deal with this in the most logical way I can manage. When you say “language that pushes the line”, what are you talking about specifically? In post 127, I tried to logically address the issues of the accusations of cheating, commissioner abuse, and escalation. I didn’t insult him, I just responded using fairly dispassionate language. I understand you’re trying to help, and I appreciate it - and I’ll be gone most of the weekend anyway - but I don’t think the idea that I’m hot headed and just going off half-cocked fits here at all.

I’m still awaiting clarification for what I can and cannot talk about in that thread. I realize that Idle Thoughts has a difficult job in this instance - he probably doesn’t play fantasy football and so he doesn’t have a good basis on which to conclude what sort of things are on topic or necesary for the game and what’s not. I think this is one of the key points of miscommunication - I felt post #127 was on topic and necesary, but it seemed like a continuation of bickering to him. But the problem is - if we’re going to hash out new rules and resolve if any sort of cheating occured (and what the remedy might be), then that issue is on topic.

That’s why I was so baffled as to his post #128. It seems like he was telling me I couldn’t discuss this issue at all that we needed to discuss because he misunderstood what was on topic and relevant to running the league. That’s why I asked for clarification, and was promptly warned.

Now I have no idea what it is I can or cannot say in that thread, and it’s hard for him to give me guidelines because he probably doesn’t understand what’s necesary as part of running and participating in the league. But until that time it seems like I am effectively prevented from being able to run that league and resolve the issues at hand.

[Munch]

@SenorBeef

When you say “language that pushes the line”, what are you talking about specifically? n post 127, I tried to logically address the issues of the accusations of cheating, commissioner abuse, and escalation.

No, in post 127 you immediately went into attack mode (well, sustained fighting, since Johnny was doing the same thing). I can’t read most of that post as anything other than a personal spat, which is what you were specifically told to avoid. From the first line of “Your goal here is to attempt to make the league worse” to “This is the reason you’re on your holy quest”. And then “You are, 100%, unambiguously the person who is trying to escalate this” is infuriating to me as both a league member and someone who has been trying to pull you out of this fight because it’s complete bullshit - yes, Johnny is escalating things, but you are doing the exact same thing. Knock it off man, it’s not worth it. No one wins here.

[SenorBeef]

Alright, Munch, I trust your judgment on this matter so I’ll leave it alone for at least a day (unless someone asks something of me that requires a reply). That said, I will need to know what it is that I can and cannot post about if I’m going to continue to be in that thread. I was told to come to ATMB for that clarification, so here I am.

Also, if you want to take the lead on figuring out if there’s something the rest of the league feels needs to be fixed or remedied in some way regard the accusations made by Johnny, go ahead, since it seems clear that at this current time I won’t be allowed to. Maybe having a neutral party in there will help to resolve the issue, decide if anything unethical occured, come up with a remedy, or come up with rule changes if necesary.

[BigT]

I don’t know the situation. But that PM from Idle Thoughts sure reads as quite hostile.

I would like to request that the mods not accuse posters of twisting things or knowing what they did wrong or similar. It only seems to escalate the situation. It’s stuff that the rest of us can only say in the Pit, where the other person can respond back in kind. It is, in effect, accusing us of lying.

I sincerely believe that SenorBeef thinks he didn’t do anything wrong. I see no reason to assume he’s lying about that. It’s rare for people to get angry for show. He clearly feels like he was mistreated. He may not have been. But I don’t see how the hostility helped.

I dare not read the entire thread, since just reading that post Idle Thoughts linked tells me it would just piss me off. That post was hostile and out of line, but so was the post it was replying to. And I do note that Johnny Ace had personally attacked SenorBeef in the quotes. In my opinion, calling someone a derogatory name is such a clear line that it should be an instant Warning for anyone who isn’t new–or maybe someone grieving against someone being a jerk: they aren’t in their right mind at that point, after all.

I don’t know if SenorBeef called him a name before that. If so, same thing. It really sounds like this got way out of hand and went on longer than it should have. No mod should ever have to give more than two Notes before issuing Warnings: one for recommendation, the second to say that any other violations will cause Warnings.

Of course, this is my opinion. The one of this thread is just based on this thread. The one of the other thread is less sure. I just included it because I’m surprised any mod tried “5 times” to stop something like this. I don’t think a mod should ever have to do that.

Again, my opinion.

[Acsenray]

Nm

[watchwolf49]

It takes two to tangle … and both parties bear shame for this dreadful exchange … however, SenorBeef as commissioner of the league is held to a higher standard, therefore bears the majority of the blame … in a come-one-come-all organization over the internet … SenorBeef must behave more diplomatically at all times and with all people … there will always be one person, and SenorBeef is going to have to learn how to deal with these types of people and get used to it, or resign his commission … just takes one short tempered person in management to ruin everything for everybody …

Idle Thoughts bent over backwards at least twice to keep from issuing warnings … should have been warnings the time before, and suspensions when they were warned … if the two of you don’t want to follow mod instructions, [del]please leave and take your stupid fantasy football league with you[/del] then how can we expect you to be able to run a fantasy football league over the internet? …

[DrDeth]

Well, I dunno, but I do know that “take it to ATMB” does not mean that at all. It means shut up and drop it. If you do take it to ATMB, you will get penalized. Especially when Idle thoughts says something like “use ATMB to discuss issues about it”. That really means, dont ever bring it back up again.

[Idle_Thoughts]

@SenorBeef

I’m still awaiting clarification for what I can and cannot talk about in that thread.

You can talk about the topic, which I’ve said a few times now. Just keep personal bickering out of it. If you have to answer questions or explain things to other posters, who are also playing the game, things about the game or rules, do so without being hostile, aggressive, or insulting. And if ANYONE ELSE in that thread is being that way (or, in your opinion, trolling or trying to bait you) then report it. Don’t go off on them yourself, though.

My posts in that thread already make this clear…and yet again, you were warned because you were told three times to take it here, to ATMB. Next time don’t ask for clarification in the thread if you’ve already been told to take it to ATMB. PM the mod or start a thread here, please.

Yes, I have given out warnings for people before who have continued to ask questions about the modding or rules in threads, just like I did with you. Your warning, once again, was for “ignoring mod instruction”. It wasn’t for “asking for clarification about a rule”. You should have said to yourself “Hm, well, he’s said three times now to make a thread in ATMB if I have any further questions or want to talk about it, so I should do that”.

I really can’t put it more simply than that. I’m sorry you disagree that that’s warnable and I’m sorry it got to that point, but I still think it’s a bit far stretched to insist you were warned only for asking for clarification.
It was for ignoring mod instruction. Thrice.

[Idle_Thoughts]

@DrDeth

Well, I dunno, but I do know that “take it to ATMB” does not mean that at all. It means shut up and drop it. If you do take it to ATMB, you will get penalized. Especially when Idle thoughts says something like “use ATMB to discuss issues about it”. That really means, dont ever bring it back up again.

This is wrong, by the way.