Damning the ones you are purported to love to an eternal hellish existence is slightly more than a spiritual spank on the butt. That goes beyond an escape from the confines of “wimpy and foolhardy” to bloodthirsty, (but spiritual, soul-leaking blood, mind you) sadistic and manaical. This says little about a god other than he seemingly lacks self-confidence and the only way he can get the popular people to show up at his paradise party is to threaten to pull the happiness rug from under their feet.
Plus, admittedly, I don’t quite understand just what you mean by your moral decisions question. Moral and ethical values can be (and have been) made quite independent of any religious albatross. You don’t need a deity to decide that gutting a little girl so as to harvest all that sugar and spice (and finally find out what “everything nice” really is) is a heinuous act.
Besides, really, do you honestly feel that torturing someone ad infinitum is a spectacular moral and/or ethical decision? Couldn’t your god find a nicer, more kindness-prevalent way of having us sit in the corner and face the wall?
Me, why I wouldn’t threaten to make anyone doggy-paddle in a lake of fire; hell (pun! pun!!), I’d just make the bad guys (or whomever I label as the bad guys) watch hundreds of episodes of “Family Matters” or “Full House” as a prelude to their repentance. Of course, that at least shows a willingness to give them a chance for repentance after they’ve been damned.
Of course he is; after all, he’s the one that came up with the dilemma in the first place. He can’t create both heaven and hell, Horatio, give us the narrowly defined board game rules and then step back, wipe his hands and say “That’s it. I’m done. If you go to the hell of my making, I’m innocent–it’s all your fault.”
If your god is the creator, if your god is all-knowing, that’s pretty much evidence enough that he’s a bit more guilty than what you suggest. If he loves us, why create a brimstone theme park where the roller coasters are constantly crashing? A stern talking-to is one thing. An eternity of torture and monchromatic red is another.
How could you suggest that he isn’t damning us? He created the system, and the system can’t exist without him. So, yes, while we may choose to not follow his edict(s), it is he that does the actual damning. Talk about ultimate free will: your god makes the choice to damn us; the final decision rests with him. Because at any point in the hellish process he could show a little divine mercy and spare us the hot pokers. So either you’re not giving him enough credit for his decisions or he needs to step up to the personal responsibility buffet and grab a heaping bowl.
I’d start off with my wickedly gorgeous smile. And I’d throw in something about that devilish glint reflected in my eyes. Then, maybe, I’d even offer up my sinful–yet salaciously skilled–touch. Alas, as it is, I will say nothing about any of them; instead, I will write that, according to the Christian rule book, I am damned. There’s a penalty to pay, I read, for not believing in your god.
Still, you haven’t answered a previous question, that being: “…do you honestly feel that torturing someone ad infinitum is a spectacular moral and/or ethical decision?”
Is it possible that you’re saying that your god’s hallowed anguish is worse than a sinner’s torturous damnation? That because your god is feeling pangs of sorrow, it makes up for the whole eternal suffering the sinner goes through? That seems a bit incongruent, don’t you think? One party feels sorry for himself and the other has to stumble down the never-ending yellow brick road of pain (there are no silver shoes at the end of this road because the road, I’m afraid, has no end).
And, of course, you didn’t answer my question. Is it ethical and/or moral to forever torture someone? Especially (and this part’s extra) if the torturer is all the while saying “Hey, I’m the good guy here!”
Does it make the situation any better that the one being who can stop the torture, who can put an end to the hellish pain does not? How can your god be truly concerned with my happiness if he keeps me shackled down in pits of despair?
For pldennison-I meant to say “the rest of you”, not “you”. I blame the medication. And, for the purposes of this discussion, if it is indeed his house that he is setting afire while it is occcupied, it take hubris to do so, point out the fire escape, then try to claim credit for “rescuing” the occupants.
Libertarian, I fully understand who created the “Hell” of your mythology, and who set the rules so that the sentence was eternity. It looks as if your god is a hardy god-Oliver Hardy, that is.
“Now look what you made me do!”
So, if someone asks me what is “the message of Czarcasm”, you wouldn’t mind if I selectively quote you, and get the most polarized opinions of you I can find, and then pretend that that is the true message that you wish to convey in the world, right?
Lots of people who are biblical scholars and leaders of Christian churches do not believe that Jesus is sending anyone to Hell. You yammer forever if you wish, it doesn’t make it true. Many faithful Christians believe a lot of contradictory things. But it just isn’t true that hate and desire to inflict eternal pain and suffering is the “Message of Christ.”
When we tell you God is love, you say we are being simplistic and parroting Sunday school lessons. When we tell you that an infinite spirit of love has come to this world, become human, and did it so that his immortal spirit can reach you, and take you on beyond this world, you ask us why he wants to send fags to hell. Jesus’ message is that love is the most important thing of all, and that how you receive each soul you meet that will reflect how He will receive you, despite any theological considerations. He won’t make you go to heaven. He won’t make you do anything.
The universe is mortal. You are mortal. You can choose to join in the spirit of love, and transcend the mortal being in a way that you are not capable of achieving on your own. The Lord will spend all of time waiting for you, and if you choose not to do so, that does not make Him a torturer.
Tris, direct correspondence from Jesus would clear things up a bit. Instead we have heresay and opinion from those who never actually met him, which pretty much guarantees that any message from him, if he ever existed, will be unclear. On the other hand, there is no excuse for screwing up any messages I might wish to give, since I am available to clear things up. As far as what he supposedly will or will not make me do, I have two questions:
Do you believe that there is a “Hell”?
If I choose not to be a Christian, can I choose not to go to Hell?
Choosing to be a Christian is not the point. Choose to be loving and kind to everyone you meet. One day you will meet the Lord, and he will receive you with love, and kindness. He won’t make you go to Heaven. There is no Hell, unless you choose to build one for yourself. If you choose to be judgmental, and condemnatory to everyone you meet, when you meet Him, he will not know you. Without him, you will perish. Die. Which is nothing other than what you expect now.
Libertarian: Your tone of condescending superiority is beginning to get on my nerves. What makes you think that you know that those of us who don’t believe in your gods “choose death over life?” Why do you assume that, if I can’t find any god in my heart, it’s because “God doesn’t go where he isn’t wanted?”
I tried for years to believe. I read the Bible, and CS Lewis, and Aquinas, and GK Chesterton, and a lot more. I prayed. I went to churches, listened to the sermons, talked to the priests and pastors-everything from conservative Catholic and high Episcopal to the Evangelical United Bretheren and Mexican charismatics.
The more I learned, the more I was confused.
Thirty years ago, in a particularly difficult time of my life, (remember Glitch?) I went up to a mountain top in Puerto Rico and sat down. I said: I need something. I’m not asking for a pillar of fire or a thundering voice or any kind of miracle at all; just the tiniest whisper, any feeling that I’m not alone. Nothing. I said “lots of people say that fasting is a path, so I’ll sit here as long as I can and wait.”
I sat there for four days. Nothing. Nada.
I can not believe. And I certainly can’t love a being that says that
if I don’t love it, it’s going to torture me for eternity.
By now, there are lots of other reasons why I don’t believe, which maybe I’ll talk about some other time. But kindly don’t tell me that I “Choose deeath”, OK?
The problem with the above is that I don’t believe I ever received an ethereal e-mail from the domain of “god.com” saying this. How do you prove any of this in a logical and rational manner?
Aside from which, what you just wrote sounds like a grab-bag of salvation solutions; it’s pleasant and appeasing to those who like a broader definition of “what choices do I have after my nose stops eating oxygen”, but one could almost bounce on the rubber ambiguity. In fact, it sounds a lot like my daily horoscope. Except, you know, I have only two stars that day instead of five because, hey, I’m dead.
What makes you think I think that? I responded to someone who said that he believes he is damned.
Maybe if you didn’t assume so much, you wouldn’t get so nervous.
No, it isn’t.
It would be immoral for me if I did it, I believe. But I’m not authorized to speak about your own masochism. That is between you and your god or conscience.
Are you saying that you blame God for your despair? That you believe in God but hate Him?
In the spirit of our recent agreement to be civil, I’ll ignore your insulting implication that I believe a myth. If you intend to start down that road again, why don’t you take it to the Pit like any member would be required to do?
That said, what rules? Do you mean the “rule” that people who reject love are miserable? And people who reject it categorically are miserable eternally? I thought you made your own choices, and now you appear to be blaming God.
Well, does your god get a “Get out of jail free” card on the whole morality/ethics issue? Shouldn’t he be held accountable for his decisions to keep people in hell forever? (For those of you who believe in a hell.)
Naw. I hitchhike on the same train of thought Czarcasm does, in that it’d be pretty silly of me to hate someone in whom I don’t hold a belief.
By the way, “pits of despair” was just a fun euphemism for “hell”.
Not to speak for Czarcasm, but why is it all of a sudden insulting? You know that he/we/the girl from Impanema don’t believe in your god; of course we relegate your god to myth status. It’d be insincere of us to say otherwise.
It is my belief, based on over forty years of non-evidence, that all gods are mythological in nature. To pretend otherwise just to pander to your religious beliefs would be dishonest. Now, the rules I am obviously refering to are the ones as generally set forth in Christianity that state that, if we do not convert to the right subset of Christianity by the time we die, we are doomed for all eternity to either Hell, dispair, or whatever, with no chance afterwards to atone or change our minds. This has nothing whatsoever to do with rejecting “love”-to say that that I do not love because I do not believe in your god is both simplistic and insulting, and the sooner you drop the idea that athists do not have love in their hearts the sooner we can continue having a civil conversation. Any conversation that starts out with “Let’s have a debate between a love-filled Christian and a hate-filled atheist” deserves to be sent straight to the BBQ Pit, imho.
And like him, you have a remarkable propensity for desperately flailing at something you don’t believe in.
I do not refer to the gods of my Wiccan friends as mythological, even though I do not believe in them.
Assuming you’re not a sock, you’re fairly new here. You might not know that most of the Straight Dope atheists routinely are respectful, courteous, and mindful that other people’s beliefs ought not to be ridiculed.
Actually, I don’t think we can, because you don’t listen. Ask Gaudere what I have said about the love in her heart. Ask Phil whether I do not call him my brother. Ask Xeno whether I did not express wonder at his comprehension of matters spiritual.
That you think you would have to pretend anything at all to be courteous to me is most alarming. Since I can’t ignore you, please do me the kindness of leaving me alone unless you need to express something to me in your official capacity.
Sure he does. He’s the one that created hell in the first place. Being omnipotent, he could, at any given time, douse the inferno’s flames and pull the damned out. I understand that you’re saying the damned get there because of a choice(s) they’ve made, but once they’re there they can’t get out. Once they’ve been damned, the only being who can “rescue” them is your god. So if he chooses not to, then yes, he’s keeping them there.
>>And like him, you have a remarkable propensity for desperately flailing at something you don’t believe in.<<
Definitely not desperate, and I’m fairly sure I’m not flailing. But I’m not going after your god per se; I’m actually questioning the logic and rationale behind what you believe. You’ve made statements of your belief here and I’m just attempting to find answers for what I see as some fairly large logical holes.
>>other people’s beliefs ought not to be ridiculed<<
Questioning is not ridicule; neither is the honest admission that we don’t believe in gods. And, like Czarcasm, I certainly won’t play the game of pretending your god is real. Inauthenticity such as that is far more patronizing and condescending than the truth. Besides, if you’re offended that I believe your god is a myth, should I counter with how offended I am that you insist your god is not? Don’t those two arguments flip from the same coin?
I see no “flailing” against gods. There happens to be a discussion going on here about what Jesus’ (and Christianity in general’s) message is, with disagreements about the nature of eternal punishment thrown in at no extra cost. I stated my belief that the existence of Christ, God and all other dieties were a myth. You again took this disbelief on my part to be a personal insult to you.
If I decide to participate in a any conversation on the SDMB that you also happen to to be participating in, and my personal beliefs happen to clash with yours, or if I even decide to question opinions of yours, you’re going to have to deal with it. If I tried to tell you not to respond to any ideas you put forward on these boards, I can guarantee you that within five minutes a Pit thread with my name on it would be started, and my e-mail box would fill up faster than you can possibly imagine. And rightly so.
Now, as far as decision making goes, if after I die I decide to change my mind and repent, does your religion say that I can then go to Heaven, or is it too late? If it is too late, then that rule is not made by me, but by the god you believe in. He decided where the line would be drawn and what the consequences would be if I make the wrong decision. If I am incorrect in these assumptions, please tell me why? I direct this not only to Libertarian, but also to anyone else that believes that there is some sort of “Heaven” after death.
But I’m not going after your god per se; I’m actually questioning the logic and rationale behind what you believe. You’ve made statements of your belief here and I’m just attempting to find answers for what I see as some fairly large logical holes.