I’m sure that calling it something other than a war is a great comfort to the dead, the maimed and their families.
This is not the first time someone has accused McCain’s service as being less than honorable. Bush famously smeared McCain’s war service and started a rumor that McCain had an illegitimate black child (he has an adopted child from Sri Lanka) during the 2000 South Carolina primary, but he did it through proxies and a whisper campaign, he didn’t say it directly. I don’t know if that makes Trump braver than Bush or dumber.
I’m not convinced that there exists an “objective” measure of hero but by several subjective measures, and in my opinion, there’s no particular reason to withhold the label from him (unless you’re his flight instructor, I suppose). He’s frequently a crotchety asshole and I consider both his treatment of his first wife and many of his political views to be terrible, but he earned his medals.
My FIL did two tours in Vietnam in the late 1960s and came back with Silver and Bronze stars himself (and a lifelong back injury). He doesn’t talk much about it but from what he’s told me it sounded like hell and certainly not like your Hollywood portrayal of war. Without attempting to glamorize what he did at all, I consider him a hero as well.
:rolleyes:
And, btw, :rolleyes: .
Those actions of Mengele were heroic. His later actions do not negate them. I’d say he’s both a despicable criminal and a war hero. Nothing prevents someone from being both.
ISTM that the president is reluctant to request a declaration of war and congress is reluctant to grant such because there may be certain things that get kicked into action (sorry about the pun) when congress makes a declaration of war.
After his absurdly over-the-top comments on Mexican immigrants, I had been wondering if Trump was some kind of agent provocateur whose real purpose was to cause trouble in the Republican party. But after is comments about McCain (who is considered a war hero by probably at least 95% of Americans), I think BigT is right: Trump is just dicking around. This is what a guy who is worth $10 Billion does when he is bored, and doesn’t really care who he pisses off.
If Trump is actually worth $10 billion I’ll eat my hat. I have yet to see any real accounting of his estate. (The disclosures he filed with the FEC are not detailed and not subject to any kind of audit or verification.) Most of his claimed wealth comes from estimated valuations of equity stakes in extremely illiquid property deals. And those estimates are basically made up by him.
I also suspect he’s hiding a shitload of festering liabilities through his various entities.
Did you read the OP? Did you understand the words, or just not believe them? Isn’t refusing to cooperate under extensive torture being heroic (even if they did eventually find a breaking point?) Isn’t refusing to be returned early, out-of-order, for political reasons benefiting the enemy heroic? Isn’t being an example to the other men while being treated horrifically heroic?
WTF do you consider heroic? Shooting all the bad guys and walking away without a scratch?
I’m sure there were enormous numbers of unsung heroes in WW2, all over, even on the “bad guy” sides. Does that make non-heroes of the ones we happen to know about?
What IS your point? What about McCain’s record is NOT heroic? How do you define the term so that it doesn’t apply?
Just for the record, I liked Senator McCain back in the 90’s, thanks to his reaching across the aisle. I rarely agreed with his opinions on Iraq. He totally lost me in his campaign for presidency and moronic choice of running mate, and since then I haven’t been at all impressed. I’m no McCain fanboy; I voted twice for Obama.
My father, who is a Vietnam combat vet (army, Specialist E-6), for some reason also trots out the “it wasn’t a war; it was a police action” line. I have no idea why, or where he got it from, but he sometimes gets unusually hung up on technical definitions.
By pedantic definition, the Civil War wasn’t a war, either. Lincoln acted unilaterally, as had presidents before and after him. After Vietnam, the War Powers Resolution Act was passed in 1973, in an effort to limit the powers of the President to commit troops without approval of Congress.
Trump is a jerk. He’s so far from being presedential it’s a joke. He said that since he’s richer than others he’s obviously more successful, so he’d make a better president. Anyone who votes for someone with arguments like that deserves the government they get.
But of course, we’ll get Mexico to pay for the wall, because … they HATE us down there!
Calling McCain not a hero when he was a weasel is really low, but doesn’t surprise me.
Anyway, enjoy the show. I have little respect for the Republican party beginning with the GWB era, but I doubt they’ll be stupid enough to select Trump as their candidate.
Repeating this because (1) It makes a lot of sense and (2) I agree with it (which of course is why it makes a lot of sense…
)
Seriously, how one defines a “hero”, especially in a military sense, does seem to have been extended to all military members these days.
To me, military heroes are like Audie Murphy, or Marines on Tarawa charging Japanese pillboxes, or pulling wounded comrades out of an ambush in Vietnam. I guess my definition in that case is 'someone who deliberately risks life and limb when not expected to to preserve or save lives of his comrades. That’s my interpretation: YMMV.
The John McCain was courageous, brave, and noble and that he performed in an honorable manner during his captivity I do not argue; but so did hundreds, if not thousands of other Americans, perhaps to even a greater extent than he did, that we have never heard of. And really, he did only what is expected of all American servicemen taken prisoner; his best.
So I may (albeit reluctantly) may have to conclude that while John McCain was a noble, honorable and courageous military man, he is, to borrow from another place, “No John Kennedy.”
IMHO as always. YMMV.
Just because Kennedy was killed? I like those who don’t get killed.
No, because he saved one of his men after his PT boat sank. I like those that save other guys.
Since there are (presumably) young people who don’t know the Kennedy story, I was of course referring to his WWII actions (from Wikipedia):
He let some of his crew get killed. He should have spontaneously developed super-powers and rescued the rest. I like those that don’t let any of their crew die.
Yes, it does. And the “countless others” who were imprisoned and survived, too.
While trying to stay as nonpartisan as possible: McCain’s service is a matter of public record, as are his awards for meritorious service. Can’t argue with those, really.
Trump has never actually been proven to be insane or just a colossal ass, but he seems to be doing his damndest to provide as much subjective evidence as possible for at least the latter.
PTSD is a real thing. Some people suffer from it, whereas some don’t. Without saying who’s “weak” and who ain’t, I would point out that a great many people who served in Vietnam had little choice in the matter – it was suit up for Basic or hare off to Canada.
Given those facts, I find it inadvisable to judge anyone on their PTSD.
Except Trump. Trump’s an ass.