Nope. Read more carefully.
Again, read more carefully.
:rolleyes:
And that is perceived as extremely bizarre by those of us who expect prices to include the wages of all the workers, as well as sales tax if any.
And with regards to productivity? That’s irrelevant.
I don’t think this is about tipping. This is just a different view of what service should be like in a restaurant. I want Cindy to keep doing all of these things regardless of the tipping situation. I want my water glass refilled frequently. I want Cindy to check to see if I need anything.
Personally, I can’t imagine anyone thinking that that’s intrusive. Just a “No, thanks, I don’t need anything further at the moment” is a simple, easy, and quick transaction that costs me nothing.
If I ever have look around and and try to get a waiter’s attention just for water, I’m annoyed. I prefer not to have to call over a waiter for routine things.
The workers are paid. It doesn’t take a rare skill to bring an ice tea.
Not only that. It requires workers in an industry with lots of turnover and Little respect for the employees* to stand up to their bosses and demand something - and the bosses can use the bullshit “good waiters earn enough tips”** excuse for then firing them*** if they didn’t make enough tips. That’s not what worker protection laws (like Minimum wage or Minimum waiting period before firing) are for in the first place.
- If Joe the Waiter was as valued as Joe the Bartender or Joe the cook, or Joe the IT guy or Joe the Manager, there wouldn’t be that nonsense of “they Need tips to motivate them to provide good Service” in the first place. Normal employees in other Areas are expected that they do good work. If they personally underperform (because they are lazy or unsuited or unskilled or high or whatever), they get reassigned or trained or fired. They don’t get tips for good perfomance on an individual and arbitrary Basis. If they get a yearly Bonus, the Goals for that are written down before Hand in a talk with the Boss. (at least, that’s how it’s done here).
** There have been enough anecdotes from customers themselves who e.g. don’t want to wrap their head around that the Restaurant calculates a Minimum fixed tip of 20% as part of the wage, and it’s therefore not appreciation of good Service, but who insist that they learned 10% and won’t give more, or who are tourists from elsewhere and Keep forgetting this uniquely US system; and not just Mythbuster did studies that certain demographics (busty women) get more tips than other regardless of their Quality of Service.
** since there is often no protection against immediate firing, or firing without reasonable cause.
Yes, there is partly a cultural difference. I wouldn’t want the waiter at my table every 5 min., either. (Since water is not free, and refills aren’t either, I don’t expect that). Yet despite that, I usually don’t have reason to complain about inattentive waiters. I might have to wait 10 min. to Signal for another glass - but I can see that the waiter is running his feet off because the Restaurant is full (and maybe I even saw the sign in the window : Waiter wanted!!!)
I also have a different expectation because I want to eat in peace. The Restaurant is not going to pressure me to leave 5 min. after I finish my main course, because they Need the space; I can sit with my Partner and Keep talking for another hour. Maybe we will order another beer or Soda, but nobody is giving us the stink-eye if we don’t.
I also usually don’t eat out in fancy Restaurants, so I don’t start ordering an Appetizer, then a Cocktail, then a main dish, then a Dessert, unless at Special occasions. Instead, I order a drink (Soda) when I sit down, and look at the carte and order the main dish 10 minutes later.
I talk, eat when the Food Comes, and talk more. Occasionally, the waiter will glance over if we want another drink, and when we wave, we will get the bill. No bothering, obsequious fawning, no subtle pressure to get on with it, we Need the table.
That’s also one of the many differences between a good waiter and a normal waiter, to notice when he’s wanted and when not (provided he isn’t swamped). Similar to how a good salesperson in a shop doesn’t jump on you the Moment you step inside, letting your browse, but doesn’t disappear when you have a question. It’s a skill to read which customer wants direct advice the Moment they step in, and which want to just browse, and when they have questions or made their selections.
Those who lack that skill will either just jump every customer, annoying the Browsers, or hide, annoying those who want help.
Like I said, waiter is an officially recognized Profession over here, with an apprenticeship of 3 years. That’s because in a good Restaurant, it’s much more than just carrying plates and bringing the bill. It’s about dealing with customers under stress, but still give them a pleasant experience (although thankfully the majority of customers don’t expect waiters to be their personal chew toys to Show their petty power over). It’s explaining what the dishes on the menu are if I don’t know the Italian words; it’s recommending what dish would suit me when I describe what I generally like; in expensive Restaurants, while the Sommelier is a seperate Profession, I do expect the waiter to give me a recommendation which fruit Juice (since I don’t drink wine) would complement that dish; it’s creating an atmosphere of “I’m here to help, but I’m not hovering and disturbing your private talk”.
Maybe this thread has strayed from the original topic, but… Waiters at those types of restaurants* in the US aren’t making MW. We’re talking about Olive Garden or Red Lobster, not 21.
*where a 3 year apprenticeship is needed to be a waiter
Cindy does that because that’s what Americans expect as service. If she didn’t do that most of her customers would say she’s terrible.
But you can tell Cindy “look, I’d like a little more privacy than typical, please bring the food when it’s ready but otherwise leave me be, I’ll let you know if I need you to come over. Thanks.” Yes, that does work, because you’re telling Cindy what you want/need. Otherwise, you’re getting pissed off about a US cultural norm. And if Cindy does leave you alone as you ask be sure to tip her appropriately because she might be taking heat from her manager about not being attentive enough to you and your tip and/or good word to the manager is proof she’s actually accommodating your wishes.
Sure, there’s a lot to criticize about US tipping culture but the over-attentive (by your standards) customer service is also US culture and not limited to tipping situations, it’s pretty much anywhere that low-level employees interact with customers.
I recently read “Door into summer” The Door into Summer - Wikipedia and as is often the case with SF before the 70s/80s, was astonished at the lack of social Change, and the Speed of technological Change envisioned (AI with vacuum tubes?). One of the things the male narrator mentions as reasons for building his “hired girls” (and god that wording made me think of sex robots, not maids!) is that (middle-class) “women” want to order somebody around, but with rising wages for maids, they can’t afford that any longer. Aside from the lack of awareness that men might want to order People around, too, esp. if they are low on the totem pole, too (cubicle farm like Dilbert?) - reading “Notalwaysright”* and similar sites I Keep being appalled at how US customers love to micromanage and mage employees lives miserable knowing that in many cases any complaint will cause the Manager to punish or fire the employee. (Just as bad are those who have no qualms to lie and cheat to get a Discount, without caring that an employee could get into Trouble).
In (socialist) countries with workers protection laws, where reasonable cause is required before firing (and several weeks waiting), where Minimum wage or Union wage exists, where professions are respected, there still exist asshole customers with unreasonable expectations, but less density: maybe 1 bad customer per hundred, not 1 in 20.
- yes, I know it’s personal stories without any verification, and some Sound too good to be true / made up after the incident. But I think even discounting 10% or 50% of the stories as wish-fulfilment leaves a certain tendency.
While taking customers’ orders can be automated, it’s hard to see that much else can. When I come into my local McDonald’s, there’s just one person at the counter register, and another at the window. Everyone else is handling the food prep.
And at a sit-down restaurant, taking the orders is just the start of a waiter’s work.
I agree with some of this. Ensuring that citizens have health care and other necessities is society’s problem, not the employer’s.
But insisting that everything has a specific well-defined “value” ignores the complexity of markets. There are freeware products as good as Microsoft’s, but Microsoft continues to sell well. Why? Do employees with a labor union make the same wage as those in right-to-work states? If not, which wage is the “true value”? How much do you pay for the oxygen you breathe? Under other market conditions would you be willing to pay more? :rolleyes:
And while you may claim to “advocate for a basic income” on this Board it’s a safe bet that when a real proposal for that is up for debate in Congress, anyone who can write that MW-supporting pols are “corrupt and evil politicians” will be in opposition to such an expensive safety net! 
No. Economic value or price rather can only be determined by transactions. I don’t see how that means everything has a specific well defined value.
I wouldn’t say anyone. Cause I support a proper and effective safety net.
I can see the concept of food prep being mostly automated. You have maybe oen guy come in at the start of the day, load up a bunch of frozen french fries into the fry machine. Then a portioned amount of fries drop from the loader to the basket, which gets put in the oil for a set amount of time, then gets raised and dumped out. An automated sprayer shoots salt over the batch. When someone orders fries, an arm picks up the right size and scoops in the fries, then swings over and deposits the fries into a waiting bag. A similar process happens with the burgers, and when the order is done the bag is dropped onto a conveyor belt to the customer.
There’s obviously a lot of work to make a system like that reliable enough to run, but I can certainly see the concept–and if you get to that point you’re quite possibly down to one person per shift who is mostly just sitting there to make sure nothing breaks down.
I’m sure–but I also note that places like Chili’s, Olive Garden, and the like are starting to use little automated systems on the table–they take the payment, are used to signal for more drinks, order dessert, etc–pretty much everything interaction-wise other than ordering the main dish itself.
If price is the only measure we have of “value” then you’d be in the strange position of arguing we make workers more valuable when we introduce a minimum wage.
The point I was making (and septimus made a related point) is that there are two variables at play here: the perceived utility U of something and the price P it is being sold for. The only guarantee is that U must be greater than P for a transaction to happen.
Can we at least start with you acknowledging this distinction and refrain from using “value” to implicitly refer to either thing? Because then the conversation can advance.
I think you’re misunderstanding him.
What he was saying is that if there was a group of 5 men having lunch, and their bills range between say $10 and $15, it’s likely that most of them are just going to pay $20 and be done with it, rather than quibble about a few dollars here or there. Sure, some guys may end up paying $7 more than they strictly ought to, but in the long run, that’ll end up redressed eventually. Plus, there’s that sort of potlatch mentality of being able to deliberately overpay without issue.
Further, he’s saying (and I’ll corroborate) that many women (not all) will try and calculate it out to the exact penny as far as tax and their portion of the tip goes, but they always seem to end up short somehow and commence to bickering about the total. Typically it’s because someone shorts the tip, or doesn’t pay for their part of the starter, or something like that.
So he was saying that when he’s the lone male in situations like that, it’s less stress for him to just pay for the whole thing, and be done with it, than endure the bickering about $2 here, or $0.50 there. It’s a bit condescending, but I can see where he’s coming from.
The stupid, it burns.
Slee
Game, set, match. If you are a restauranteur and can’t afford to pay minimum wage, you suck!
Moderator, feel free to lock this thread now since it prove pro-higher minimum wagers are correct.