So "We speak English" is racist, but "Hablamos Espanol" isn't? Uh huh then...

[PunditLisa]

A bartender here in Ohio got into trouble with a “For service, speak English!” sign in his window. He said he was sick of Spanish speaking customers coming in and expecting him to understand Spanish, so he made it clear upfront that he doesn’t. It wasn’t appreciated by the Ohio Civil Rights Commission and they told him to take it down. He’s now put a second sign up that says, “Try English; it works for us.”

If Ohio secedes from the union in the middle of the night, you’ll know why. We’re an ornery breed here.

Article

[DiosaBellissima]

After reading the replies, I should note that the people who originally got pissed are his competition. A few Spanish-speaking gardening services saw the ad and complained to the Hispanic Chamber of Commerce. I assume they were pissed because they realized they would lose business. Idiot from the Hispanic Chamber of Commerce says the ad is racist and now all over sensitive people are raging about the racism.

Ah, yes! Finally the local news put the article up on their site: Linky- no reg required.

Oddly, they quote the ad as saying, " ’having problems communicating with your current gardener?–Talk to us, we’re English speaking." I could have sworn the add that they showed on the news was like the one I showed above. Maybe I’ll get off my ass and go through the paper to find the actual ad.

From the article:

“It doesn’t directly indicate a race, but I think it’s pretty clear what they are trying to insinuate, so I just think that it’s insensitive,” Gonzalez said.

The actual wording from the ad (quoted above a bit) seems to be even less offensive than what I thought it was. Am I missing the “pretty clear” message here? What the hell is the English-speaking trying to insinuate? That he understands people can’t communicate with their gardeners, so they should hire him because he speaks English? Is that so bad?

Aargh, my head hurts.

[doreen]

@Nametag

Incorrect. “Spanish spoken (here)” would be “se habla Español,” which is also a common phrase in advertisements. “Hablamos Español” means, literally “we speak Spanish.” And yes, a lot of times people make a point of speaking English to communicate that they’re not Mexican, and yes, that’s racist code. OTOH, it’s idiotic to assume that it’s inherently racist – it puts the cart before the horse. In this case, however, unless Joe and/or his employees also speak Spanish, I’d guess that he regards speaking English and NOT Spanish to be a better thing than the reverse, and that, if not exactly racist, still stinks a little.

Why would advertising “we speak English” be different from advertising"we speak Spanish" , “we speak Polish” or Italian or any of the other signs I commonly see? Presumably a business puts up a sign to attract those who are more comfortable conducting business in that language. There are going to be people more comfortable in English , and there are no doubt businesses where most of the employees are non-English speaking. It’s got nothing to do with speaking only English being “better” than speaking only Spanish in some sort of vacuum.

[ShibbOleth]

@PunditLisa

A bartender here in Ohio got into trouble with a “For service, speak English!” sign in his window. He said he was sick of Spanish speaking customers coming in and expecting him to understand Spanish, so he made it clear upfront that he doesn’t.

There was a thread about this a little while ago. I wondered at the time whence the sudden influx of Latinos/Spaniards into Mason that has been bothering this poor man. Any clue on that? Has Mason changed that much?

[JohnBckWLD]

@PunditLisa

A bartender here in Ohio got into trouble with a “For service, speak English!” sign in his window. He said he was sick of Spanish speaking customers coming in and expecting him to understand Spanish, so he made it clear upfront that he doesn’t.

Just to clarify, though the (gentle)man you made reference to: Tom Ullum, probably does serve a few draughts during the day - he is more than a bartender…he’s the owner of the Tavern.

(The “For service, speak English!” sign) wasn’t appreciated by the Ohio Civil Rights Commission and they told him to take it down…

Just another minor clarification. Not only did the OH CRC order him to remove the sign, if their entire ruling holds up in court, Ullum could also be ordered to undergo diversity training and pay for anti-discrimination advertising. :eek:

A few weeks ago, the general SDMB pit concensus was; any commercial sign that seeks to divide people along language lines should be classified as being in bad taste.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Clothahump

2. Up until about 30 some-odd years ago, the majority of the people who came to this country learned to speak, read and write English.

Can you give us a cite for this, compadre? And can you give us a cite for the idea that this is no longer true?

that massive failure called bilingual education would be flushed down the toilet where it properly belongs.

Again…sheesh…

Sheesh indeed. I see an example of a massive failure of education, but somehow I’m guessing bilingualism wasn’t involved.

Daniel

[DiosaBellissima]

@Clothahump

2. Up until about 30 some-odd years ago, the majority of the people who came to this country learned to speak, read and write English. Why isn’t it considered racist for them to come here, refuse to learn the language of this country and demand that we learn to speak their language (especially when most of them are here illegally to start with)?

3. Why won’t our government get off its collective dead ass and officially declare English to be the national language? It would reduce government expenditure greatly because we wouldn’t have to print ballots in multiple languages, for example, and that massive failure called bilingual education would be flushed down the toilet where it properly belongs.

I finally have time to reply to this.

I agree that people that come here should learn English, mainly because it is tremendously advantageous to them. My experience (friend’s families and such) shows me that a lot of the non English speakers WANT to speak English, but simply don’t have the resources. It is easy to say that there are programs and such, but even around these parts said programs are hard to come by (and work around a job). When I offered to give my friend’s family members English lessons, they were all over it. Granted, this could just be one, random example, but hey- random examples count for something.

And most of them are here illegally to begin with? Um, er, cite? Remember: we aren’t just talking about Mexicans here. I’ve had a few friends come over from India that I helped learn English, as well.

In regard to your next point: even if everyone did speak English, it is silly to assume everyone would be totally fluent. I’m pretty confident in my Spanish speaking abilities, but I’m not about to volunteer to vote (or do anything important) in my second language. My point is: it’s safe to say that most would probably be able to operate on the day to day, but Spanish/Korean/Klingon /etc. would still be their primary language. Therefore, we’d still need to print ballots in other languages, otherwise we’d be alienating a huge portion of our voting population.

Bilingual education should be flushed down the toilet? I have plenty of friends whose parents came here legally. Spanish was still the primary language in their homes and, because of that, they needed a boost in English from the ESL programs.

Or are you suggesting we (the English speakers) should stop learning Spanish?

And off of that tangent, the local news did a poll and-apparently-most people agree that the “We Speak English” gardener was a-OK in his actions.

[elfkin477]

@Left Hand of Dorkness

Can you give us a cite for this, compadre? And can you give us a cite for the idea that this is no longer true?

I can’t offer written cites but I can tell you three things:

1. My mother attended school in Taunton MA in the 60s-early 70s. When she was in elementary school, her school’s practice was to put the kids from Portugal in first grade, no matter how old they were, long enough to speak English. Most of them moved to their appropriate grades once they got the basics of English down.

2. I attended K-4th in Lawrence MA in the mid-80s. When I was in 3rd grade there were kids ay my school being taught classes in 12 other languages than English. English was another subject for them, not something they were exposed to all day long. (my school sucked in many ways, and hopefully this was a way it sucked uniquely, but I doubt it)

3. As part of my work now I see writing samples of children who are EAAL (English as an Additional Language; ESL isn’t considered an inclusive enough term these days :rolleyes: ) from various states. The students in question begin learning English immediately upon their arrival in the US. From what they write some lessons are taught in their native tongues for a short while if they speak no English at all. FTR, many kids here as short as 2-3 years write exactly like native speakers their age- but often with somewhat better grammar!

So after see-sawing from one extreme to another, it looks like a lot of places have reached a happy medium. I’ve only seen the EAAL tests for a handful of states, but I’m hopeful that its a widespread trend.

[elfkin477]

@elfkin477

So after see-sawing from one extreme to another, it looks like a lot of places have reached a happy medium. I’ve only seen the EAAL tests for a handful of states, but I’m hopeful that its a widespread trend.

One of those non-native speakers I mentioned in #3 might have put the ’ in it’s, for example :smack:

[cosmosdan]

@DiosaBellissima

Ah, yes! Finally the local news put the article up on their site: Linky- no reg required.

Oddly, they quote the ad as saying, " ’having problems communicating with your current gardener?–Talk to us, we’re English speaking." I could have sworn the add that they showed on the news was like the one I showed above. Maybe I’ll get off my ass and go through the paper to find the actual ad.

From the article:

The actual wording from the ad (quoted above a bit) seems to be even less offensive than what I thought it was. Am I missing the “pretty clear” message here? What the hell is the English-speaking trying to insinuate? That he understands people can’t communicate with their gardeners, so they should hire him because he speaks English? Is that so bad?

Aargh, my head hurts.

I think the problem isn’t that it’s racist. The Hispanic Chamber of Commerce
complained because they realize that it’s a good idea and if it works for him then others will do it too and that creates some problems for the non english speaking folks.
My question…Would it be racist if a latino had thought of it first and gotten a whole crew that spoke english?

I live in the latino section of Nashville. Great folks. It’s good business to learn spanish and I’m working on it but I’ll confess to being irritated when a customer acts indignant because there’s nobody that speaks spanish available.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

Interesting, elfkin! As part of a college course, I’ve been spending one day a week in a local second-grade classroom. Of the eighteen students in the class*, six are ELL kids (ELL? English Language Learner, you politically incorrect lout!) All of them but one speaks English very well; the one who does not is very shy, and I have trouble getting her to talk to me in Spanish either. When she’s in a 2-person group, she’s forbidden her partner to report to me the results of their conversation, even when I 'm virtually certain they were on-task.

So in my limited experience, kids pick up the language that surrounds them; and if they attend public schools, they’re overwhelmingly surrounded by English. While they learn English, it IS a bad idea to rely on their English to get them through other subjects: if they perform poorly on a science worksheet, you’ve got no idea whether it’s because they didn’t understand the concept or because they didn’t understand the language. So I support the idea of giving such kids extra instruction in their native language, if this is possible, simultaneous with their instruction in English.

For example: when I work with the Spanish-speaking girl in the second-grade class, if we’re playing a math game, I’ll ask her, “Ok, I have eight and nine; how much are eight and nine? Tengo ocho y nueve. Cuanto son ocho y nueve?” I might turn to one of the bilingual kids and say, “(Hey, how do you say ‘plus’ in Spanish?” and they’ll help me out). She’ll answer, “dies y siete,” and I’ll say, “Good, that’s seventeen, dies y siete, right? So you tell me seventeen, digame seventeen.” And she’ll say “seventeen.” This way, I can evaluate her understanding of addition facts without having language be a barrier, and at the same time, I can help her with her English. (My Spanish, as you’ve probably noticed by now, is pretty freakin basic).

When I’m reading a story to the classroom, it’s all English. At that time, the focus is on language arts, and I believe that there’s nothing better for language arts than hearing beautiful language read expressively. Stumbling through it in Spanish would be doubly silly: I’d butcher the language, and she wouldn’t learn the rhythms and subtleties of English.

I’m no expert in the field, and I’m sure that if I knew more about linguistics, I’d do a better job with her. But I’ve got enough experience to know that it’d be stupid for me to refuse to speak with her in Spanish when we’re studying addition, and it’d be stupid for me to read to her in Spanish when we’re studying The Day I Swapped My Dad For Two Goldfish.

Daniel

• Plus or minus a couple; I’m not exactly sure of the count, since I have to wear shoes in class.

[Clothahump]

@Left Hand of Dorkness

Can you give us a cite for this, compadre? And can you give us a cite for the idea that this is no longer true?

Yes. It’s called history.

The United States used to be the “melting pot of the world”. Everyone who came here wanted to fit in and be successful. They learned English and they joined American society. We are no longer the melting pot; that is no longer politically correct. Instead, we are the “salad bowl”, where supposedly we all come together but retain our own individual characteristics of language, culture, etc. , just as the lettuce, tomatoes, onions, etc. do in a salad.

Here is a good discussion of the issue.

I said originally that this started back in the 70s; it actually started post-WW2. However, there seems to have been a very sharp upswing in the salad bowl concept in the 70s.

[deadeyesdad]

I missed the damned earthquake again.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Clothahump

Yes. It’s called history.

GodDAMN, but you’re an idiot. I take solace in the fact that I’m on the right side of your cite, to which your kind will soon be consigned.

Here is a good discussion of the issue.

Just in case others don’t check this particular gem, you really should. He’s linking to a letter to the editor of a college newspaper, written by a feed science management major; it begins, “Now that cracker-bashing week has been completed, can people talk about diversity without being called a racist?” and just gets better from there.

I thought you couldn’t top your last thread, Cloth. I was wrong.

Daniel

[DiosaBellissima]

@deadeyesdad

I missed the damned earthquake again.

Gasp! You’re from Bakersfield? :eek: Yay! I thought I was the only one suffering from this pain

And you didn’t miss much, it was a 3.0, fer cryin out loud.

[bizzwire]

@Dominic Mulligan

I guess some people just genuinely want to be offended.

Not only that, but they want to be offended on other peoples’s behalf.

[Little_Nemo]

Yes. It’s called history.

Or at least history the way you think it was.

In point of fact, most immigrants (including probably your own) spoke their native language through the first and often the second generations. Things like radios, television, and public schools have increased the speed with which immigrants learn English and most immigrants now assilimate much quicker than they use to in previous generations.

[deadeyesdad]

Yeah but looking at the USGS map it was only about 10 miles away and I wasn’t doing anything at that time and I should have felt it. 34 1/2 years living in this state all of it living less than 30 miles from the San Andreas and I have felt 1 earthquake that I knew was a quake when it was happening. There are others sharing your Bakersfield pain. It’s not that bad in Bill Thomas land. To stay on topic my gardener does not speak English. Who cares. He knows where to bring the checks.

[DiosaBellissima]

<hijack…hey, it’s MY thread>

Did you feel the earthquake last summer? It was almost 6.0. That was the first quake that I had felt in a looooong time. Of course, I didn’t realize it was an earthquake until the earthquake was over. Go figure.

</hijack>

[deadeyesdad]

Yes that was the only one I ever felt and knew it was a quake when it was happening. I was sitting in this very chair posting on the SDMB and it felts like something hit the house. Two seconds later as the shaking was still going on I realized that this was an earthquake. I was so jazzed the rest of the day. That one was centered about 5 miles away. I felt the '87(or 88) Whittier quake when I lived in Chino but I was starting my truck to drive to school and about one week before a cat was sitting in my fan when I started my truck so when the car started shaking I thought that was what it was. After looking under the hood and then driving to school I heard on the radio about this big SoCal earthquake. Everyone at school had their big earthquake story. I thought I killed another cat. :smack: