So what all forms of tribalism are going on in the greater middle east

Great Debates
1

The obvious one right now is Muslims vs Jews, which is a major one right now with the war in Israel. But there are a variety of other forms of tribalism. I’m trying to get a better grasp on what all infighting exists in the region. Of course some will say its not Muslim vs Jew, its Arab nation vs Israel. But are the two different or just different expressions of the same form of tribalism?

There is the obvious Sunni vs Shia. My understanding is that when Islam first existed the Arabs were Sunni and treated non-Arabs poorly. So Iran, which is Persian, became Shia to escape the persecution and now Iran is the backbone of Shia islam. Is that the case across the greater middle east, where Shia muslims tend to be racial and ethnic minorities?

Despite the dislike of Israel, its my understanding that the Arab Sunni nations like Jordan and Saudi Arabia are in an unofficial alliance with Israel to restrain Persian, Shia Iran.

I talked to someone from Saudi Arabia who said that it was a common insult there to call people Indian or Hindu. Is that a common form of tribalism, Islam vs Hindu, or Arab vs Indian? Here in the US, we don’t really talk about Hinduism. Is that a form of tribalism that exists in the greater middle east?

When Bin Laden was living in Afghanistan I read a biography that said he faced mistreatment for being Arab. I guess the Pashtuns do not like Arabs.

Hamas is a Sunni Islamist movement. But groups like Al Qaeda and ISIS hate them because they feel Hamas is too moderate. So the more extremist Sunni Islamist movements hate the more moderate extremist Sunni Islamist movements.

Is the anti-western attitude based on race, religion, power, or a combination?

Then you have the anti-kurd attitudes. What exactly is that based on though? Why do so many different groups seem to dislike the Kurds?

Then you have things like misogyny, homophobia. Secularists vs hardliners. People fighting over power. ie, things that happen everywhere.

2

While this doesn’t exactly answer all of your questions, I think it’s an excellent primer.

Other will be around shortly to explain difference between Shia and Sunni, ASF.

3

Pedantry:

Without going into reams of detail, that is entirely incorrect. Persia was overwhelmingly Sunni until the 16th century, when a fervently heterodox militant and mostly Turkic Shi’a Sufi order/dynastic group took over politically, persecuted/chased out the native Sunni clergy, called in outside Shi’a replacements (mostly Arab clerics from what is now Iraq) and more or less forcibly converted the area.

4

There’s also Kurds trying to get independence; they’re divided up in Turkey, Iraq, Syria and Iran.

5

Thank you for the correction. My mistake

6

So it’s coalesced in recent years into less of a religious Jewish-v-shia-v-shiite conflict (overlaid onto the cold war and then then the war on terror, with the US and Russia picking proxies). It’s developed into a more traditional nationalist “great power” stand off with a bloc lead by Saudi Arabia facing off with a bloc lead by Iran.

7

Never happened like that. Iran was majority Sunni until the Safavid period (17th century). You may be thinking of the ‘Abbasid revolt against the Umayyads, which began in outer Iran.

ETA: Of course Tamerlane fielded this first. Good job, T.

8

I don’t know the culture well enough. I was basing my statement on this article.

Many Christian, Jewish, and Zoroastrian converts to Islam chose to become Shia rather than Sunni in the early centuries of the religion as a protest against the ethnic Arab empires that treated non-Arabs as second-class citizens. Their religions influenced the evolution of Shia Islam as distinct from Sunni Islam in rituals and beliefs.

9

The passage you quoted was accurate. The center of the Shi‘i world was in southern Iraq from the early times. Iran had a significant Shi‘i presence from fairly early on, with two of the most important shrines. Southern Lebanon was historically another center of Shi‘ism, from which the Safavids imported mullas to Shi‘a-ize Iran in the 17th century.

10

Wiki map of Iran dialects

I mean, look at just the variety of Persian dialects in the area. You can’t unite as a modern nation state if you can’t understand everyone in your national border.

11

It’s important to note the realpolitik nature of all of this. Sure, ISIS was motivated by religious fervor, but groups like Hezbollah aren’t motivated by Shia issues so much as money and power. Religious or ethnic groupings provide a combined experience, but they’re not necessarily the primary driver nowadays, but a result of centuries of cultural factors. The Troubles weren’t actually about religion, either.

There are lots of Hindus in many Gulf States as workers, but they will never be citizens of the countries they work in. So I can’t speak for this Saudi person but sounds like a mostly class-based insult.

Safavids conquered Aq Qoyunlu and others in the very early 16th century.

12

Anything about Israeli tribalism and how it effects the Middle East?