So what's the deal with Steorn's free energy?

In My Humble Opinion
1

Back in August, an Irish firm called Steorn took out an advert in The Economist claiming to have invented a means of producing effectively free energy, viz and over-unity motor. For a week or so, the internet was abuzz, and a thread appeared on the SDMB.

Since then, it’s all gone quiet in the world at large, but I’ve continued to monitor this company with (sceptical) interest. Every scientific bone in my body tells me they can’t have invented what would amount to a perpetual motion machine, but something about it intrigues me. The knee-jerk reaction is “It’s a scam”. Well, if it is, then I’m kind of at a loss to see how they’re going to pull it off. This isn’t a case of some crackpot inventor in a garage selling magic capsules that turn water into petrol. It’s a real, well-established company, run by people that are easily traceable, from a known location rather than a PO box somewhere. They are not accepting money from investors, nor are they taking orders for products.

They claim to have selected a jury of 12 respected scientists and engineers, who will test their claims. The jurors are said to be free to make their own devices from Steorn’s plans, and to study them and test their power output. Now this is where my credulity is tested somewhat. Why the jury process? Why not just start building devices and demonstrating them, and/or publish their findings through traditional scientific channels?

Steorn’s website has a fairly anarchic forum, but there is some interesting info on there. The forum elected a member to go and visit Steorn’s offices. She has made (at least) two visits, and what she has seen seems to add up. “Working” devices (obviously she was not qualified to test this), contracts with manufacturers, reports from qualified enginners and scientists, and so on.

Whatever comes of this, I think it will be interesting to see how it pans out. I’ve read a few Usenet threads about Steorn, which tend to dismiss it outright as a scam, and dismiss anyone who says “Let’s see what happens” as a fool about to be parted from their money.

I certainly have no intention of parting with my money, but I wonder what the possible outcomes could be?

  1. Steorn’s jury says: “It doesn’t work. You’ve made an elementary mistake with your measurements.” Embarassment all round, Steorn folds, end of story.

  2. Steorn’s jury says that it does work. Rest of scientific world takes no notice. No manufacturers will take the risk of building the devices. End of story?

  3. Steorn’s jury says that it does work. Steon’s manufacturing partners go ahead and build devices and start selling them. They turn out not to work. Could Steorn abscond with the money? Surely they have created too much of a trail if they were trying this option?

  4. As 3, but they do work. Theories of physics hastily rewritten :wink:

  5. Steorn announces a press conference to present the results from the jury. (This is due in April, I believe.) Result: “April fool”? Or, another favourite internet theory, it all turns out to be an advert for Wii, or for some TV show or other. Meh. I can’t see that working, as the media impetus was lost months ago.
    Any ideas? What can Steorn gain from this? Surely if you’re going to scam people, you don’t go quite as public as this? The authorities could surely track them down. My own gut feeling is that they do honestly believe they are onto something. However, the laws of physics suggest that they’re not. It will be fascinating to see how they deal with the dawning of the truth…

2

I was going to start this very thread myself. I honestly don’t think they have made a genuine breakthrough in science, but I don’t know what to think about their motives, integrity, etc.

3

This reminds me (in general form) of another company, called Blacklight Power. (I refuse to link to it, 'cause I don’t want to wipe the grease off my hands, but if you Google Blacklight power, Randy Mills, and or “classical quantum mechanics” you’ll find it.) Blacklight is a legitimate company, and while they don’t solicit money from the general public, they have (or claim to have) received funding from various energy companies, despite the fact that Mills is clearly mad as a hatter and his technology (based upon “fractional ground states of the hydrogen atom” and claims to offer over-unity energy, explain cold fusion, produce pollution-less fuel that can be burned in IC engines, and cure cancer–I am not making this up) remains undemonstrated.

There are reasons, certainly, to wanting to short-circuit the process of academic peer review in order to get a new process to market–to protect trade secrets, for instance. On the other hand, publication of their methodology in technical literature would cement any patent claims (assuming that they could obtain a patent for a device that claims to produce “over-unity power”) and in any case their mechanism is likely to be reverse engineered as soon as it hits the market. Their complete ambiguity regarding the fundamental principles of the process make it impossible to evaluate, but in lack of any positive evidence, I’m calling bullshit.

Stranger

4

It’s a monumental pile of garbage. If your technology works, and you can make a car that doesn’t need fuel, you don’t need a jury, you need a car. If the technology works and you can make electricity for free, make electricity for free and sell it to the electric company. Use the money you make to build bigger and better generators, put the old guys out of business and you can have oodles of money and everyone gets clean power. I guess that plan is a bit too complicated.

You don’t need to peer review something that works, you just build it. When the Segway came out, the inventor didn’t need to “prove” that his thing didn’t fall over, he just built them and showed everyone.

5

I am not disputing that it is likely a monumental pile of garbage. I am just interested in people’s theories on what form of garbage it is. I.e., why are the Steorn guys doing it? “A fast buck” (or euro) is the obvious answer, but how will they achieve that? Are they sincere but misguided, is the whole thing a prank, what? It just seems like professional suicide to take an existing company (which admittedly was not exactly thriving) and turn it into some sort of scam vehicle.

As for the manufacturing angle - Steorn’s CEO says that they “don’t have the resources” to manufacture in bulk, and will be outsourcing the manufacture. Supposedly they have only manufactured test rigs, up to about 550hp (400kW) output.

So why not just demonstrate it? Presumably because everyone will assume fraud. As we know, you can’t patent a perpetual motion machine. Maybe they think that if their “respected scientists” say it works, the patent office will play ball and then they can get protection on it.

At what point are they hoping to make money from the scam, if that is what it is? I’m not looking for a debunking of the “technology”, just theories as to what these guys are up to and why… it certainly doesn’t look like the classic “Free lunch” scam to me.

6

Oh, but it is. It’s just one that’s wrapped up in a nicely designed “Web 2.0” website. The bottom line is that until they’ve got something…they’ve got nothing. Forums and juries and patents aside, they’ve got nothing.

If you’re familiar with the Flying Spaghetti Monster, it’s really the same thing. When you provide absolutely no evidence, there’s no reason to believe in it over any other thing.

Even if they had some dodgy YouTube video of a demonstration, yes people would consider it a fraud, but that would at least be something. It would be one piece of evidence (albeit weak) to go along with their claims.

At the moment they have nothing. Their motives are no more important or testable than that of the FSM.

7

Like this one?

Once again, I am not asking for debunking. I just want to know HOW they hope to gain anything other than ridicule from this. As far as I can see, they are in a no-win situation unless the thing actually does work.

8

They hope to gain investment money.

“sorry sir, are calculations proved inconclusive”. “Maybe if we had more money we could make this thing work”. “We’re ever so close”.

9

I know this isn’t the central point you were trying to make but why can’t you patent a perpetual motion machine? (Assuming, of course, that you can build one in the first place.)

10

Because patent offices won’t accept them, presumably to cut down on the amount of paperwork they have to deal with from cranks.

11

It does have nearly all the markings of a scam; including:

-Claims contrary to laws of physics
-Rotating magnets!
-Demonstrations of devices in private to select individuals
-Inexplicable delays in releasing the technology

The thing that’s throwing people is the aura of respectability and the established nature of the company - and that’s something I simply can’t explain, but I remain convinced that whatever the explanation, it won’t be that they have a genuine over unity device.

I mean, I’d honestly dearly love to be wiping egg off my face in six months’ time and saying “I guess the laws of physics weren’t as we thought them to be” - because the implications of my embarrassment there would be free energy for everyone, but let’s be realistic - it’s just not going to happen.

12

The UK Patent Office doesn’t accept them, on the grounds that they are “contrary to well-established physical laws”, but I think the US Patent Office’s rules are slightly different - they will accept them if the inventor can provide a working model. No-one’s managed it yet. :wink:

13

It’s not the classic scam, because nobody falls for the classic scams anymore. This is a new type of scam, they might not be trying to get money out of YOU, but they’re trying to get money out of someone.

They manage to pay off a few shill scientists, or figure out how to fool a small group of them, and their investors may believe it for a while longer.

14

I’ll certainly be watching what happens as the “jury announcement” date approaches. If it is a scam, rather than a bunch of misguided and overoptimistic engineers, it might prove educational and/or amusing…

15

Pfft. I’m sure I could knock up a “working model” in a few weeks, given a few magnets, some wire, ball bearings… and a 240V power supply :wink:

16

I’m still waiting for the unveiling of the mysterious EESTOR super battery.
The 500 pound electric car battery that gives 100+ mile range.

17

They’re all classic scams. You just dust 'em off, give it a new name, and bring in the marks. "No, please…I can’t take your money…we already have all the funding we need…well, if you insist…we could use some start up capital. Here, please sign this financial agreement with an indemnification notice at the bottom relieving us of any responsibility should the technology prove unworkable.

Back in my engineering consultant days I saw it many a time. Go rent The Grifters (great movie, based on a fantastic book) to get a brief but entertaining lesson on how the grift works.

Stranger

18

It came to me in a flash as I awoke this morning (Christmas Day). The Steorn thing is the setup for a reality TV show (something like Channel 4’s Space Cadets - the 12 scientists, selected out of many hopeful applicants - are going to be the contestants.

19

This Wikipedia article gives a very good summary about
the History of Perpetual Motion Machines

I surmised that John Keely and Joseph Newman would be mentioned.
Interestingly, Steorn Ltd is the next to the last listing in that article and the final listing states that:

I’m glad I found that out before I sent my money to Steorn, Ltd.

20

We had a thread about them a few months ago.

The odd thing is that they are using a PR company that was once in the top knotch in the UK. Dewe Rogerson did a lot of the PR work for privitizations in the early 1980s.

I concluded that it was an industry ‘demonstration’ - like getting product awareness for something that does not exist. However I’m curious how it has gone quiet.