So what's the deal with the "Galactic Alignment"?

[Andy_L]

@garbonzo607

Obviously if the date passes and nothing significant happens! LOL

This is not to say a new theory won’t take it’s place. Depends on what evidence it has backing it up. Others say it might be Dec. 24th. I’ll wait until Christmas until I give up hope. Christmas is a great day to start a new mindset.

I was raised religious, so I grew up believing fantasies and myths believing they were true. Maybe I was raised to want to have something to look forward to in life besides regular human goals. At least believing this isn’t damaging others like a lot of religions. And it’s not imperative that you need to know this to my knowledge. It’s just good to know. And it’s always good to look into alternative theories, since a round earth was an alternative theory at one point. America may not have been discovered until English technology advanced enough if not for alternative theories. There is just a lot of conflicting sources found on the internet that can cloud this theory. It’s good to be skeptic, but you guys are taking it too far. You refuse to believe anything that isn’t universally accepted by your authorities. I can’t blame you, this is human nature. Just like Hitler’s Germany. Godwin’s law, I know, but it is true! I am not sure I wouldn’t have agreed with Hitler (especially if I was an Arian with blue eyes) if I lived in Germany at that time. Because we always assume our authorities are doing the right thing.

Sometimes you need to do your own research, which can be done more easily now with the internet, but with the wealth of information you have to pick the good from the bad.

Sigh.

1. The round earth was established 2000 years before Columbus.
2. Columbus was not English.

(also The London Underground is not a political movement)

Thank you for playing, but if you’re not interested in facts, I’m not interested in discussing this with you. Good day.

[kferr]

@Exapno_Mapcase

For Pete’s sake. The date is palindromic. Backwards it’s 12.21.12. Do you think that’s just a coincidence? How can it not be significant? To six digits yet!

That’s only if you use the US calendar notation. In Europe it’s 21/12/12 and thus no big deal. But if you use the full year you can get 20/12/2012 which means the woo is going to happen a day early!

[Ken001]

@eburacum45

Also I hope that people realise that the node where the ecliptic and the galactic equator cross is around six degrees away from the location of the centre of the galaxy; twelve times the diameter of the Moon.

Thats interesting and no I didn’t realise it.

Are you saying that the the Milky Way is slightly unbalanced? More mass on one side or to galactic south? Maybe a diagram would help.

Or…as one poster astutely suggested, balance weights on a couple of spiral arms and we’re good to go.

[Ken001]

@Andy_L

.

(also The London Underground is not a political movement)

Say whut?!!

I thought everyone knew the London Underground relied completely on forecasts from the Weather Underground. Just ask Patty Hurst, she was a meteorologist for them.

[Anne_Neville]

@garbonzo607

The sun rising and setting would not be reason of celebration. Something has to happen that usually doesn’t happen, and that is the solstice.

There are lots of holidays in different cultures that have no astronomical significance. We just had one in the US on Monday. Our New Year’s Day has no particular astronomical significance. The year 2000 in the Gregorian (not Georgian, btw) calendar had no particular astronomical significance. The Jewish New Year happens when we first see a waxing crescent moon in a certain month (or at least at one time it did, now it happens when Google says it does, as God intended ;)). The Islamic calendar works similarly. Nothing happens, astronomically speaking, when the Jewish or Islamic calendar begins a new year that doesn’t happen every month.

The Gregorian, Jewish, and Islamic calendars used today date their year 1 to some supposed historic event (the birth of Jesus, the creation of the world, and the emigration of Mohammed from Mecca to Medina, respectively). The year 2000 in the Gregorian calendar was a date that happened to fall 2000 years after the people who compiled the calendar believed Jesus was born. How do you know that the date 13.0.0.0.0 in the Mayan calendar isn’t just a day that happens to fall a certain number of days after the ancient Maya believed some event of historic significance happened? That’s what the year 2000 in the Gregorian calendar, the year 5000 in the Jewish calendar, and the year 1000 in the Islamic calendar were. There are certainly cultures that have used the Gregorian and Islamic calendars that are or were quite advanced in astronomy. It doesn’t follow from that that every significant date in their calendars is correlated to some astronomical event.

[Maus_Magill]

@Ken001

Thats interesting and no I didn’t realise it.

Are you saying that the the Milky Way is slightly unbalanced? More mass on one side or to galactic south? Maybe a diagram would help.

Or…as one poster astutely suggested, balance weights on a couple of spiral arms and we’re good to go.

Just be glad we’re not charging for the tow.

[Anne_Neville]

@Maus_Magill

Just be glad we’re not charging for the tow.

I sure am glad we paid up our GAA membership for this year.

[eburacum45]

@Ken001

Are you saying that the the Milky Way is slightly unbalanced? More mass on one side or to galactic south?

No, the galaxy probably isn’t unbalanced. It is an irregular shape, though, so any estimate of the shape, and the midplane, remains that, an estimate.

But the best estimates I’ve read places the midplane of the galaxy several tens of parsecs to galactic south of our location; we are currently moving towards galactic north, away from the plane. We will eventually turn round, attracted by the preponderance of mass in the galactic disk, and start moving back towards the plane, crossing it many millions of years in the future.

As far as the centre of the galaxy is concerned, this is an estimate too- but it is an estimate that falls quite close to Sag A*, the black hole at the centre of the galaxy, so it is probably quite close to the actual centre.

Yes; the galactic equator is an uncertain quality, and the Sun is a wide disk superimposed on the ecliptic, so these all add uncertainty to the so-called alignment; to my mind it makes the alignment insignificant, especially since the solstice has been occurring on the node since 1980 and will continue to do so until 2016. There is nothing significant about 21-12-12.

[eburacum45]

One recent (2009) estimate of the location of the Sun with respect to the galactic midplane is given by wikipedia;

Milky Way

The Sun is currently 5–30 parsecs (16–98 ly) from the central plane of the Galactic disk.[sup]77[/sup]

[a35362]

@garbonzo607

How do you know? Are you an astronomer? We are always appealing to authority or reading things other people say. I want the source. This is why I hope Cecil will really look into this matter. It seems to me that NASA doesn’t even know, as they profess themselves.

Yeah, if NASA doesn’t know, better ask Cecil!

[JohnT]

@panache45

In general I agree. But you have to admit, there have been a few philosophers who just made up shit.

Like Carly Fiorina.

[JohnT]

I will say I was a bit depressed when the recent 9/11 thread, “Orbs attacked the WTC!” was half-deleted by the mods… depressed, because that sort of crazy just doesn’t show up every day.

But now we got the Galactic Aligners to keep us amused, so times are good again.

Bless you, Garbonzo. Post 61, when you link GA-deniers with Holocaust-deniers, is an instant classic. I really appreciate it.

[Miller]

I thought Neil Degrasse Tyson had a pretty good take on this. I have to kind of wonder why the ancient astronauts* would fill the Mayans in on so much higher-order astronomical data, but neglect to mention to them that the Earth does not, in fact, rest on the back of a crocodile floating in a lily pond.

*NB: Those aren’t statues of astronauts in the pictures you linked to. They’re just statues of guys in funny hats, following an apparently universal human drive to put absolutely ridiculous things on top of your head.

[Anne_Neville]

@Miller

I thought Neil Degrasse Tyson had a pretty good take on this. I have to kind of wonder why the ancient astronauts* would fill the Mayans in on so much higher-order astronomical data, but neglect to mention to them that the Earth does not, in fact, rest on the back of a crocodile floating in a lily pond.

Or maybe something really useful, like the germ theory of disease and how to vaccinate. Some more diverse crops or livestock might have been nice, too. I wouldn’t think that aliens that can travel interstellar distances and don’t seem to have a problem with interfering in Earth civilizations should have too much trouble getting some horses, cows, pigs, chickens, rice, or wheat from Eurasia for the Maya.

[JohnT]

Maybe they took them away from the Maya… :eek:

[Ken001]

@eburacum45

No, the galaxy probably isn’t unbalanced. It is an irregular shape, though, so any estimate of the shape, and the midplane, remains that, an estimate.

But the best estimates I’ve read places the midplane of the galaxy several tens of parsecs to galactic south of our location; we are currently moving towards galactic north, away from the plane. We will eventually turn round, attracted by the preponderance of mass in the galactic disk, and start moving back towards the plane, crossing it many millions of years in the future.

As far as the centre of the galaxy is concerned, this is an estimate too- but it is an estimate that falls quite close to Sag A*, the black hole at the centre of the galaxy, so it is probably quite close to the actual centre.

Yes; the galactic equator is an uncertain quality, and the Sun is a wide disk superimposed on the ecliptic, so these all add uncertainty to the so-called alignment; to my mind it makes the alignment insignificant, especially since the solstice has been occurring on the node since 1980 and will continue to do so until 2016. There is nothing significant about 21-12-12.

Thanks for that.

And I completely agree that its of generalised interest at best but not otherwise significant. On the other hand, galactic clusters and branes…now why have they occurred??

[Andy_L]

@Anne_Neville

Or maybe something really useful, like the germ theory of disease and how to vaccinate. Some more diverse crops or livestock might have been nice, too. I wouldn’t think that aliens that can travel interstellar distances and don’t seem to have a problem with interfering in Earth civilizations should have too much trouble getting some horses, cows, pigs, chickens, rice, or wheat from Eurasia for the Maya.

See “Those Eyes” by David Brin on this subject worlds of DAVID BRIN

"… What? They were here to help us? Well thanks a lot, you alien gods you! Thanks for neglecting to mention flush toilets, printing presses, democracy, or the germ theory of disease! Or ecology, leaving us to ruin half the planet before finally catching on! Hell, if someone had just shown us how to make simple glass lenses, we could’ve done the rest. How much ignorance and misery we’d have escaped!
"

[garbonzo607]

@Musicat

Garbonzo607, you are rehashing old, tired speculations and long-ago discredited crackpot theories. Do you really think this is new? Unexamined?

No… I don’t think it’s new, but I believe a lot of you have not examined it as thoroughly as I would hope or you would not be saying that these theories are somehow discredited. To be honest, I have not seen a comprehensive in depth analysis of the theory to prove it to be wrong like for instance the many websites that disprove the Bible. I haven’t seen this. I see a few articles on how “crackpot” the theory is, but nothing to back up their claims besides, “Just because it’s unexplanable doesn’t mean Aliens did it.”

More on that below.

True. We can definitely prove there were ancients.

This is like a creationist saying there is some truth to the evolution theory: We can definitely prove there humans.

The Ancient Alien theory would not be the same without the aliens. What I mean by SOME is that there are some things people misrepresent just to fit into the theory. I don’t believe those things of course. I only believe the facts. Just like there were some guys called out by creationists for misrepresenting facts to fit the Evolution bill. Just like this made Evolution look bad, these guys who lie and give untruth make the Ancient Alien theory look bad.

Why even say this besides making a sly remark?

If none of the evidence is valid, accumulating more of it does not make it more valid. It just makes the presenter look more like a tinfoil hat nutter.

You are strawmanning. I never said the evidences weren’t valid! I said they are circumstantial evidence, just like fossils they seem to evolve are circumstantial evidences to Evolution. This is why Evolution is still a theory and not a law if I’m not mistaken. (I’m not a professional scientist here) There may be something that comes a long later that fits the bill but right not Evolution seems valid, and in my eyes, so does the Ancient Alien theory.

You yourself admit some things are unexplained. Why can’t you leave it that the theory is possible instead of writing it off and saying it is “discredited”? If it is really discredited, I would want to see the research paper that looks into a lot of things the theory brings up and really does discredit them. Otherwise these unexplained things can easily be Aliens. Of course we don’t know for sure. I never claimed to have known for sure.

This is why I say 99%, this is why Evolution is a 99%.

Just because 5% cannot be explained does not mean it is unexplainable. Perhaps with more info, they could be explained. Nevertheless, just because something cannot be explained doesn’t mean aliens did it.

And this is like someone saying when the theory Evolution was evolving (really) that just because there are fossils that fit a pattern of evolution and that it is unexplained by science doesn’t mean they evolved.

This theory fits the bill. It EXPLAINS how these currently unexplained things COULD have happened.

This is what the theory is. Just like Evolution explained the many evidences we were unearthing in favor of the theory. The Ancient Alien theory explains the many evidences we are unearthing in favor of it.

My point is, if something is unexplained, then a theory is made if one can be thought up. This explains the unexplained until something better comes along. There really is no other theory to fit these unexplained things. Just like Evolution is still a theory until something better comes a long to better explain things. Just like Gravity is still a theory until something else comes to light to show how things work.

And there you have it. You aren’t looking for the truth, you are looking for substantiation for what you believe. That may be your opinion, but it’s not science. I hope you can understand the difference.

You have certainly lost me. How could you say it’s not science when science can’t explain it? Evolution was not accepted as science at one time, also! Some scientists still don’t accept it as science. I believe the science you are trying to refer to is highly subjective. Maybe be more specific.

I’m not sure what you mean by that I’m not looking for truth. Many of you believe Evolution is 99% true. Does that mean that we aren’t looking for truth but for substantiation for what we believe?

Maybe clarify your words more, because I do not understand them

[garbonzo607]

@Yumblie

It’s funny that just because of this 2012 business everyone’s falling all over themselves about how awesome the Mayans were at astronomy.

What most people don’t realize was that in the past, before modern technology, everyone was awesome at astronomy. The stars are up every night, they follow predictable patterns. If you have nothing better to do at night than look up, then you too will become awesome at astronomy. The Greeks were so awesome at astronomy that they calculated the circumference of the Earth and the distance to the Moon thousands of years before the Mayans.

I don’t believe this is true. If it were so simple every civilization known to man would be as good astronomers as the Mayans.

The Mayans are set out as the best astronomers of their times.

The Greeks may have done that, but they couldn’t pass that information on to the Mayans. They Mayans did it on their own, so it’s irrelevant to say they did it thousand of years before. They had no contact with each other, so time is irrelevant. A case can be made that it is simple to calculate the circumference of the Earth if even the Greeks, knew, though. But the Greeks were not as good as the Mayans, that is for sure.

Both a normal person and a piano savant can play one key on a piano! I hope you get my point.

European thought was inherited from the Greeks. From around 600 or 400 BC the theory of geocentrism (sun revolves around earth) competed with the theory of heliocentrism (earth revolves around the sun). The Catholic church, dominator of European religion, chose the geocentric view and killed anyone who dared to argue with them. By the 1500s there was enough dissent about the Catholics and the Pope that people could refute their claims and generally live and so we had the Copernican Revolution and the beginning of modern scientific exploration.

Yes, the Mayans were good at astronomy, for their time. But with modern technology, we are much much better at astronomy than any past civilization. Did the Mayans even have a concept of what a galaxy was? Without a telescope there’s no way to tell that the Milky Way we see in the sky is a large disk of stars.

Maybe they did. Do you have proof that they didn’t? You’ll have to do more research on the matter if you want to know. But you can’t claim they didn’t.

Why would the Mayans have any concept of “galactic alignment” if they didn’t even know the Earth went around the Sun? You’d think that if they were visited by ancient aliens that’d be one of the first misconceptions the aliens would clear up for them.

I believe that they did know the Earth went around the sun as did many ancients who were given information from the “Gods”.

Read these texts:

*“The Sun does never set nor rise. When people think the Sun is setting it is not so. For after having arrived at the end of the day it makes itself produce two opposite effects, making night to what is below and day to what is on the other side. Having reached the end of the night, it makes itself produce two opposite effects, making day to what is below and night to what is on the other side. In fact, the Sun never sets.” *
Brahmana (3.44)

*“The Earth rotates in two ways by the Will of Brahma. First, it rotates on its axis and secondly it revolves around the Sun. Days and Nights are distinguished when it moves on its axis. Season change when it revolves around Sun”. *
(Vishnu Puran)

*"In the initial stages of the creation of the Universe some creation material slipped from the hands of Brahma and collided with Earth resulting in the formation of the Moon.” *
(Brahmand Purana)
*
’Shape of Earth is like an Oblate Spheroid’. *
Rig VedaXXX. IV. V

*‘Earth is flattened at the poles’. *
Markandeya Purana 54.12

”There are suns in all directions, the night sky being full of them. And there are planets in all directions around them.
(Rig Veda)

*“The Sun is the center of a small system which includes 9 planets including Earth. The Sun holds more than 98% mass of this small system in this giant universe which contains millions of suns". *
Rig Veda

*“The sun has tied Earth and other planets through attraction and moves them around itself as if a trainer moves newly trained horses around itself holding their reins.” *
Rig Veda 10.149.1
Maybe you should consider how the ancients knew this without the technology we have today. I believe the Mayans did also.

I’m not sure why you make statements without backing them up.

[garbonzo607]

@Yumblie

But don’t you see? You’re putting faith in an authority too, with all the “research” you’re doing. How do you know the Mayan calendar ends in 2012? How do you know the Mayans used astronomy to make predictions? How do you know the Mayans even existed at all?

Conspiracy theorists love to boast about how wonderfully skeptical they are by not following the main authority, but all they’re doing is following a different authority. Unless you’re a Mayan scholar, you don’t really “know” anything about Mayans, so you have to rely on others to do the research for you.

Those of us who disagree about the existence of ancient aliens have simply chosen to follow an authority that we believe is more trustworthy. Don’t play the “You’re all sheeple, I’m the only one doing real research!” card because all you’re doing is putting your faith elsewhere.

So ask yourself, why do you trust what these websites say over professional astronomers? Do you think those websites really are more accurate, or do you just want them to be?

What exactly are you talking about? I’m not sure I believe the Galactic Alignment anymore. Afterall, it was never part of the Ancient Alien theory. It was just a little trinket of info I had added to it myself. It seems it is only one guy’s brainchild? So it’s maybe not true. Who knows. Or maybe it is a good guess.

The NASA website said we don’t know. I agree with them.

I put my faith elsewhere because all the evidence I have seen leads me to this conclusion. Why do you put your faith in Big Bang/Evolution vs. Creationism/ID?

Why did Isaac Newton put his faith in his own theories instead of those popular at the time?

I have not seen much refutation against the Ancient Alien theory is the problem. If someone wants to provide it, I’d love to look at it and see if the counters are conclusive or valid. Maybe if the things I research are fake. I can understand that. I am putting my trust in an authority, I understand that. If they are fake so be it. It’s fake. It’s all fake, it’s all wrong. But if it’s fake, why aren’t there more websites saying how fake it is with evidence that it is fake? Comprehensive. And not just a few issues made by a TV show, but the whole evidence all together?

There are professionals it seems on BOTH SIDES of this fence! Where as one side is providing evidence another side is not providing counters! So I go with the side with the evidence until I see a valid comprehensive counter. Maybe I have just missed it. I am not closed-minded, I’m sure you can see.