If only the Shrub had been studying Humpty Dumpty rather My Pet Goat, he might have learned that once the king invades, he and all his soldiers can’t put some nations back together again.
And a very Merry Christmas to you too, yojimbo.
[QUOTE=Muffin]
If only the Shrub had been studying Humpty Dumpty rather My Pet Goat, he might have learned that once the king invades, he and all his soldiers can’t put some nations back together again.
[/QUOTE]
And that may be putting it too optimistically.
The problem with this particular omelet is that, while the preinvasion egg may not have been particularly good or particularly loved, it was at least the sum of its parts, and functioned as if it were a homogenous whole. Now that the individual pieces that had been contained by the Baathists have been released from a strong governmental structure, there’s just no way they’ll ever fit together into another shell. That needed to happen right away -or “regime change” needed to happen seamlessly and without interruption of governmental authority- or it was never gonna happen at all.
My country had only two great obligations as an occupying power in Iraq; to establish order and to employ the populace. Order = security, infrastructure and law. Employment = keeping the young and the fit and the passionate engaged in running or at least rebuilding their country. We failed at both those obligations, from the start. Most of Bagdhad is without clean running water or adequate sewage treatment most of the time. Most of the country is without electrical power most of the time. None are secure. Rebuilding contracts went to non-Iraqi firms and security contracts went to mercenaries. And the first thing we did with the young, fit and passionate natives was to fire them from the largest pre-war employer in the country without providing other employment.
Now, because we’ve failed so miserably as occupiers, all the pieces of Iraq are trying to exert their own authority to the utmost, but none has a monopoly on violence, and all have a great need and desire for outside support. If we leave, the outside support and influence becomes a war fought over, for and on what used to be Iraq, between Saudi Arabia (+ USA) and Iran (+ Russia), with Jordan and Syria (and probably Turkey) throwing in with their respective interests. But if we stay, what is at present our understood preference for the Sunni side of the street must become a declared allegiance to Saudi oil interests. This will assure that the violence widens, intensifies and draws in all the other foreign participants - all while the human and financial costs to the US and Great Britain continue to grow at some exponential rate.
So we must leave, and hope the proxy war can be contained to a a long and bloody regional conflict so that it stays merely an economic and political struggle globally.
And that’s the brightest possible outlook, IMO.
[QUOTE=yojimbo]
Now the U2 prog is playing Sunday, Bloody Sunday…. Sing it.. NO MORE! NO MORE!
[/QUOTE]
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6805063692754011230
This version?
Yeah, I was ‘for the war before I was against it.’ I believed Powell and Bush. I was wrong. I’ve said it before.
That said, the war wasn’t the most wrong thing. The most wrong thing was how the aftermath was handled.
[QUOTE=Baldwin]
The current neocon line, as expressed by Bill Kristol, is that, even though things on the surface seem to be not going so well, it’s all part of a grand 50-year plan for reshaping the world, and you’re just a short-sighted whiner if you can’t see that. They never mentioned it before because they didn’t think we’d understand. (Saw him on “The Daily Show”. I don’t know how that guy gets to be a famous “political analyst”, because if he posted here, his arguments would get ripped to shreds in short order.)
[/QUOTE]
Every time I see Bill Kristol spouting the current talking points I hear, “But wait, there’s more!” Mr.stretch is always reminding me that Bill is not Ron Popiel, and he’s not trying to sell me a pocket fisherman. What he is selling is far, far worse.
[QUOTE=levdrakon]
I just don’t get the “war” thing. What war? There never was one. War on WMDs? War on Al-Qaeda? War on non-democracies who happen to have oil? There’s no war. Just invasion and occupation even the most brilliant minds on the planet can’t think a way out of now.
[/QUOTE]
You left out ‘war on the middle class’, ‘war on education’, and ‘war on the environment’. This guy is not just a disaster for the Middle East, ya know. He and his asshole buddies declared all-out war on America long before they got into office. Going national with the failed policies of Texas has been calamitous.
[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF]
I’ll accept that burden. My motivation for changing my mind was different than those you specified, but I believe I still qualify for your scorn.
This is the time, this is the place. Please, have at it. Curse my name. Don’t think that I don’t feel guilt about it.
[/QUOTE]
You remind me of Col. Kulp, my history teacher in 1973, who’d voted twice for Nixon and, to his credit, was embarrassed and contrite about it to the point that he turned our class that semester into Watergate 101. There were no VCRs back then, so we watched it in class and the recaps at home, and collected Watergate scrapbooks for class.
[QUOTE=Eve]
You remind me of Col. Kulp, my history teacher in 1973, who’d voted twice for Nixon and, to his credit, was embarrassed and contrite about it to the point that he turned our class that semester into Watergate 101. There were no VCRs back then, so we watched it in class and the recaps at home, and collected Watergate scrapbooks for class.
[/QUOTE]
My problem is that I’m starting to look back fondly at Nixon!!
Doors, you’re OK in my book. Live and learn, man. Heck, I once owned a leisure suit and wore it to discos!
Egotist te absolvo, go, and sin no more.
[QUOTE=Qadgop the Mercotan]
My problem is that I’m starting to look back fondly at Nixon!!
[/QUOTE]
You are not the only one.
Man, that is just wrong on so many levels. Please add in that you only did it to get chicks and did not like it otherwise? 
Jim {I wonder what ever happened to my Disco Sucks T-shirt, of course I haven’t fit in it for 25 years.}
[QUOTE=What Exit?]
Man, that is just wrong on so many levels.
[/QUOTE]
True wisdom comes from having done unwise things.
I feel I now have done enough unwise things to be well on the way to wisdom.
My hope is that my future unwise choices won’t be so messy.
I’m grateful I was wise enough to be against the war (and go on record here as being against it), and didn’t overreact when my patriotism and manhood was questioned (by some folks here and some in real life) for that stand.
But I remember it. A few folks have made amends for what they said. More have not.
I Love Me, Vol I-- that was. . . artful.
[QUOTE=Qadgop the Mercotan]
My problem is that I’m starting to look back fondly at Nixon!!
Doors, you’re OK in my book. Live and learn, man. Heck, I once owned a leisure suit and wore it to discos!
[/QUOTE]
Do you have pictures?
[QUOTE=gonzomax]
Do you have pictures?
[/QUOTE]
It cost me, but all extant copies and the negatives were destroyed.
There are photos of me and Mrs. Mercotan in a banana yellow tux tho, at our junior prom.
[/end hijack]
Forgot to mention – Doors, we’ve been on opposite sides of a particular issue often enough, but I always thought you argued honestly, and you’re also not mentally stuck in cement. What more can we ask here?
[QUOTE=yojimbo]
There are people still posting on this board that called other members traitors because of their opposition to this clusterfuck back in the day. I’m not going to name names but you know who you are.
[/QUOTE]
I wish you would name names, because I can’t think of anyone still posting on this board who did that. I could be wrong, I could have missed the posts or maybe I don’t remember, but can you at least give us one example?
[QUOTE=Frank]
Does that help?
[/QUOTE]
Talk about getting your licks in. 
danceswithcats, eject the same media that’s now reporting that it is only a mere coincidence that the Selective Service Department is doing a “practice run” at the Draft??? You mean that media?
Well, fuck you and your media-bashing. This is the President who has at every single fucking turn lied and hidden facts from the media and public.
You should be grateful that the media has not gone numb and worn away in the last 6 + years.
[QUOTE=John Mace]
I wish you would name names, because I can’t think of anyone still posting on this board who did that. I could be wrong, I could have missed the posts or maybe I don’t remember, but can you at least give us one example?
[/QUOTE]
If I wanted to start a thread calling people out by name that’s what I would have done. If you don’t know or remember then maybe you should spend a bit more time reading than picking apart people’s posts for the logical inconsistancies they make.
So no names from me, but they a few are still here. Most have left though as they got sick and tired of being wrong and being called on it all the time.
[QUOTE=yojimbo]
If I wanted to start a thread calling people out by name that’s what I would have done.
[/quote]
And if I want to ask you for a cite, I’m going to ask you for one. I find it interesting that you put more effort into evading the question than it would take to answer it.
Wow, that’s pretty pathetic. It’s my fault that you haven’t given any examples? I’m begining to think there aren’t any.
Merry Christmas.
Blah Blah Blah.