Some days the tiger eats you: Roy, of Siegfried and, attacked

singular1, as Gassendi pointed out, Sig and Roy have done thousands of performances - and who knows how many rehearsals - without incident. Elephants have been used as work animals for thousands of years, they are still used today. Considering their power, it’s ASTOUNDING that they can so easily be controlled by humans. You have no cite for comment, and one can easily find ample evidence to disprove it.

What do you mean “revert”? The shows a lack of respect, in my book, for tigers and elephants. They don’t become zombies, they don’t convert to some altered state. They respond, in tiger and elephant ways, to human behaviors designed to achieve a working relationship with tigers and elephants.

I never thought that the tigers had R & S trained very well…

BTW, the tiger display at the Mirage is always the first thing I go see when I’m in Las Vegas. They’re beautiful animals.

But hey, if you have a dangerous job like Roy the Chew Toy there, you gotta expect that the worst can eventually happen. Isn’t that one of the supposed “thrills” for the audience, the danger of working with animals that could easily overpower a human in an attack? I’d say the audience got their money’s worth that night. Okay, bad joke, and I sure hope Roy overcomes his injuries enough to perform again, but he can’t have been too surprised that it happened.

I’d like to point out that in all my years of fixing computers, I have never been bitten by one. I’ve killed a few though.

They very likely don’t. Those magicians, however, have more money than God, and shouldn’t need insurance.

I don’t know about Las Vegas, but our University Hospital is, although certainly skanky, run-down, and populated with the uninsured, the best trauma center in the state. I wouldn’t go near that ER with, say, a broken arm, but if I had suffered a near-fatal accident or burn, or if I had a fragile premature baby, that’s the place I’d want to be.

<Cartman>No kitty! thats a bad kitty! mom Kitty is being a dildo!</Cartman>

I can’t believe the rather cold and callous nature of some posts in this thread, or that some people would try to hijack this very tragic event to make some sort of ignorant point about animal rights or the ethics of ‘animal acts’.

S & R got where they are by hard work and a determination to bring classy, commercial, entertaining large-scale magic to the world. They didn’t start off with any advantages over anyone else, so their wealth, fame and success has been well and truly earned.

In the entertainment business, getting to be a headline act is hard, and staying there harder still. S & R have been a major draw in Vegas for 30 years, and in that time have entertained literally millions of people. Their show is not polemical at all, but it does have a very positive and life-affirming tone, and I’m sure they have instilled a sense of wonder and awe in many children of all ages.

It is well-known that they love the animals they keep and use in the show, and give them wonderful homes and every possible creature comfort, with expert supervision, veterinary care and facilities - far superior to what even the best zoo can afford to provide. However, S & R also respect their animals, never treat them as if they are ‘domesticated’, and have worked hard to establish the best possible relationship with them, on stage as well as off. They have also been very active in wildlife preservation programmes, and in raising awareness of the plight of some of the big cat species that are close to extinction.

Anyone who has seen the S & R show knows that these big cats are always treated in a respectful and knowledgeable way. They are not made to jump through hoops, literally or figuratively, or displayed like big, cute kitty cats. They are there to be admired and respected for the beautiful, impressive and magnificent creatures that they are, and I can promise you that even when they are involved in an illusion, the animal does not suffer at all or experience any ‘discomfort’ of any kind. For example, if you see a girl transform into a tiger, I won’t spill any secrets but I can tell you the tiger is never uncomfortable, but the girl might be!

What happened to Roy was not ‘inevitable’ or ‘an accident waiting to happen’. S & R, and the team they work with, understand how dangerous these wild creatures can be, and manage their show accordingly, with expert handling and attention to these kinds of possible dangers. That’s why their performances for 30 years or so have been completely safe. It was a fluke moment, a non-predictable random tragedy, and a talented showman and entertainer has suffered in an appalling way as a result. He should have our sympathies, and our prayers for those who believe in that kind of thing.

He should also have our respect. This isn’t a really good time for cheap jokes.

I am going to Vegas next month.

I hear the who town in bummed out about this. I know I am.

(sigh)

If you play with fire your going to get burnt…one day.

And all due respect is given! They must treat their critters very well if this is their first incident.

A strange comment from Ianzin considering he derided their show as ‘utter crap’ on SDMB earlier this year

“Best shows: anything by Cirque du Soleil, Penn & Teller, Ronn Lucas, Mac King, Lance Burton. For Cirque, yes, book in advance. For the others, booking in advance can’t hurt but you should be able to get tickets on the day or while you’re there. Worst: Siegfried & Roy (utter crap).”

According to what I heard on last night’s news, this was one of the few live performances the attacking tiger had actually been in, so maybe he got spooked. It was also reported that Roy bopped the tiger on the nose (not the head), which (and I am not a tiger expert) works as a reprimand with MY cat. Maybe he thought it would work with the tiger? :confused:

MetalMaven

It happened in NY too. This must be the weekend for man eating tigers.

I haven’t seen an S & R show, so I can’t speak to its artistic qualities or lack thereof. I don’t doubt that S & R are hard workers. But I have seen footage and read stories of animals in circus acts who are abused terribly (anyone remember that elephant screaming as he was being beaten by his trainer on someone’s home video, taped by chance at a small circus?). And sense tells me that those magnificent creatures were not put on this earth to be our entertainment - or to live in S & R’s compound in Las Vegas, however wonderful it might be to our eyes. They’re wild animals. They’re not pets.

If people truly want to do those animals justice, they ought to work on habitat and hunting issues so that the animals can live as they’re supposed to in their own world. Not as we might like.

Yes, it is topical.

Earlier today, someone mentioned this to me in passing and I thought it was a joke, I feel really bad now…I hope he’s ends up okay.

Does anyone know what happened to the tiger?

Hey, does this taste fruity to you?

Fessie and others - While discussion or whether or not you approve of trained animal acts may be topical, just talking about what you feel and what you have seen and your belief system is not straight dope material.

**But I have seen footage and read stories of animals in circus acts who are abused terribly (anyone remember that elephant screaming as he was being beaten by his trainer on someone’s home video, taped by chance at a small circus?). ** Yes, yes I have seen such footage. What do you know about elephants? What elephant behavior does this footage show?

Without context, an awful lot of images are meaningless. I’ve seen hysterical family members try to pull doctors off their children when they saw the doctors “hurt” the children by schocking them with electric paddles. I just saw footage of Ashton Kutcher snatching something from his dog’s mouth and yelling! He was caught on tape abusing his dog!!! (Context: he was grabbing a Lego from the dog’s mouth, and he went on to chastize himself for leaving a Lego where the dog could get it. However, the film clip could be used to look like something completely different.)

Siegfried? Is that you?

Seriously, I don’t care if they fed the animals caviar every night and personally licked them clean. The vetrinary care and respect the creatures receive does NOT turn them into something besides WILD animals. Heck, I don’t know exactly what happened, but who’s to say the tiger was even being mean? Maybe it was just engaging Roy in a game.

No one deserves to be injured ever. I hope Roy makes a full recovery. I also hope that he rethinks his career, which revolves around keeping wild animals in cages in domestic situations where they do NOT belong.

I don’t intend to hijack this thread. But since we’re discussing animals in entertainment, here are a few things I’ve picked up:

In my experience, folks with animal acts say that tigers, elephants, and such can be “trained” but not “tamed”. One tiger handler told me that he never turns his back (mentally) on a tiger. He loves them, cares for them, but never forgets that they can be dangerous under certain circumstances despite their training.

But having said that, the same person also believed that the animals generally enjoy human companionship, and working with humans. From my observations, I would agree with this statement.

I asked another trainer about abuse. He said two interesting things about this. First he said that if he abused his animals in any way, he probably wouldn’t live through a dozen shows. Second, he pointed out that his animals were how he made his living. Why would he abuse them? He compared it to a race car driver taking a sledgehammer to his car.

Elephants are very interesting. As has been pointed out in this thread, it’s pretty amazing that we can get them to do anything at all! I once made this very observation to an elephant trainer. He told me that with an animal of that size, there’s very little we could convice these animals to do if it didn’t really want to do it.

And again, my observations over the years bear this out. I’ve often seen what appears to be affection between the elephants and their humans, much in the same way I see it between dog owners and their companions.

Quick story: I once took my wife to the Circus World Museum in Baraboo, WI. They did an elephant act demonstration during the day before the big performance. The family that ran the elephant act would bring the three big bulls out to a bleacher area to show the training techniques, then give the audience a chance to touch them (the elephants, not the family).

As they brought out the elephants, my wife saw that the family’s 5 year old boy was part of the act. He was darting in and out of the animals’ path as they walked and helping direct them. My wife said she was worried about that. I told her not to worry - these family acts know their business.

During the demo the father explained that one of the first things they teach the elephants is to lift a leg when prompted. He then had his son tap the an elephant on its ankles. The kid was using a thin stick and apparently did it too hard for the dad’s liking. He yelled at the kid, “Hey Louie, take it easy!”

I said to my wife, “See - he’s telling a 5-year old kid not to be so rough with that elephant!” It was clear they weren’t worried about the kid getting hurt. My wife couldn’t stop laughing about it.

Afterward they invited the audience to come touch one of the elephants. Even though I’ve been around these acts periodically, I was astounded as I watched the elephant stand patiently while kids and parents came up to touch it. Truly incredible. It showed an incredible amount of trust between the trainers and the elephant that they could permit such a situation with no fear.

I won’t attempt to debate the ethics of performing animals. But I will say that my experience with the animals’ treatment and well being has been overwhelmingly positive. There will always be isolated exceptions, but I’m convinced that these animals are treated well, and on some level seem to enjoy working with humans.

Say WHAT? GMAFB. I realize you have a lot more posts than I do, but I’ve seen enough threads, particularly MPSIMS, to know that personal opinions, beliefs and experiences comprise a significant portion of SDMB. You wanna call for cites, you might want to open a GD on the topic. Otherwise bite me.

And an animal screaming as it is being beaten is not easy to miss. You suggesting elephants are into some kind of S&M?

One of the witnesses interviewed on a CNN report indicated that apparently Roy noticed something was spooking the tiger, but things moved too fast to get it off the stage safely.

I hope this turns out for the better, for all involved.

ianzin: However, S & R also respect their animals, never treat them as if they are ‘domesticated’, and have worked hard to establish the best possible relationship with them, on stage as well as off.

I’m not sure how you train wild animals to perform in front of an audience full of people in Vegas, but I’m quite sure it can’t be done without treating the animals as if they are domesticated.

Just one mans opinion, most will probably consider it callous.

I see this situation as being no different from the life and drama which Evel Knievel had. He chose to entertain people in a manner which is dangerous. I do not fault him for that. However when he was injured and placed in near death situations, the amount of concern and empathy I felt for him was greatly reduced. He made his bed, he’ll have to sleep in it. I have no moral objection with these people gambling with their lives. However, if people choose to doit for great profit and public entertainment, I am not going to spend alot of energy holding a vigil for them

I hope Roy gets better, and I hope his friends and family are holding up well. However, if you play with fire, you could get burned. It’s certainly not “sad” in the way that accidents that happen out of the blue to innocent bystanders is sad.