Some sins are worse than others..

[AncientHumanoid]

It’s too short a thread so far to have missed that the Mosaic Law penalties have already come up. See post #3.

:dubious:

[Nars_Glinley]

@JThunder

Well, Yahweh did ordain more severe punishments under the Mosaic Law for certain sins than for others. This alone suggests that not all sin is of equal severity.

This topic is discussed more thoroughly here.

But these are punishments administered by man in order to get the sinner to repent. It makes sense that the amount of repentance required would commensurate with the “amount” of sin. So from man’s perspective, it would appear that some sins are “worse”. But God’s eternal punishment, the one that really matters, is the same for all sin.

[Sage_Rat]

@feppytweed

Actually, according to Jesus:

You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brotherwill be subject to judgment. Mt 5:21-22
And later on in that same chapter, Jesus says this about adultery:

You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart
Mt 5:27-28

So biblically, Jesus equates murder with hatred, and adultery with lust, thereby making all sins of marginally equal gravity.

That only equates the desire to perform a sin to actually committing it. Lust=adultery and hatred=murder, but that doesn’t mean that lust=muder.

@KRM

But God’s eternal punishment, the one that really matters, is the same for all sin.

Not as such. While Hell is the result of a life of sin, it is not a punishment so much as dieing while refusing God. Hell is simply a state of the absence of God, and that state is chosen in life.
If you sin during life but repent of that sin then obviously you still respect God and God’s word–so you can still find him in the afterlife. Simply, he will force you to work off your sin before he will accept you.
So the eternal state of Hell isn’t an indication that all sin is equal–simply that the choice to ignore God cannot be changed after death. Sinners who do repent go to Purgatory, and in my understanding the amount of time that must be spent there does vary dependent on the quantity and severity of all sins committed that were not worked off in life.

[Thudlow_Boink]

I think there’s a distinction between sins (i.e. specific things you do—or don’t do, in the case of “sins of omission”) and sin as a state or condition. It’s the distinction between what you do and what you are. It’s kinda like the distinction between taking drinks and being an alcoholic.

We human beings have to judge people on their behavior, because that’s all we have to go on. (And I’m using “judge” here both in the legal sense, and in the sense of “evaluate,” like if you’re deciding whether to be someone’s friend or lend them your car.) But it’s our hearts or souls, which only God and, to a limited extent, we ourselves, can know directly, that “keeps us out of heaven,” that separates us from God, and out of which flows our behavior.

You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Mt 5:21-22
And later on in that same chapter, Jesus says this about adultery:

You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart
Mt 5:27-28

So biblically, Jesus equates murder with hatred, and adultery with lust, thereby making all sins of marginally equal gravity.

From the standpoint of their effect on other people, whether they deserve earthly punishment, etc., there’s obviously a big difference between murdering someone and being angry with them, or between thinking “hey, I’d like to do her” and actually following through.

But from the standpoint of what kind of person you are, if you want to murder someone, but you don’t actually go through with it due to cowardice or fear of punishment or lack of opportunity or something like that, that doesn’t make you any better of a person than someone who actually does the deed. The murder and the unconsummated anger both spring from an attitude and a soul that just ain’t right.

[Walloon]

@feppytweed

Actually, according to Jesus:

You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brotherwill be subject to judgment. Mt 5:21-22
And later on in that same chapter, Jesus says this about adultery:

You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart
Mt 5:27-28

So biblically, Jesus equates murder with hatred, and adultery with lust, thereby making all sins of marginally equal gravity.

That you will be judged, yes. That you will be judged equally for murder or for being angry — Jesus says no such thing.

Likewise, if you shoplift or if you murder someone, you will appear in court. You will not be judged the same, however.

[JThunder]

@KRM

But these are punishments administered by man in order to get the sinner to repent. It makes sense that the amount of repentance required would commensurate with the “amount” of sin.

No. Those punishments were administered by man, but ordained by God. Moreover, their purpose was NOT to get the sinner to repent, as evidenced by the fact that some of those sins merited capital punishment (i.e. death).

So from man’s perspective, it would appear that some sins are “worse”. But God’s eternal punishment, the one that really matters, is the same for all sin.

Again, that simply doesn’t follow.

Suppose that two students get a failing grade in a class. They get the same punishment (flunking) even if one student did better than the other. Receiving the same punishment does not mean that they did equally well (or equally badly).

And if that doesn’t convince you, what about John 19:11, where Jesus himself spoke of “the greater sin”?

Again, I urge you to read the article that I cited. It explains this matter in greater detail.

[Nars_Glinley]

@Sage Rat

Not as such. While Hell is the result of a life of sin, it is not a punishment so much as dieing while refusing God. Hell is simply a state of the absence of God, and that state is chosen in life.
If you sin during life but repent of that sin then obviously you still respect God and God’s word–so you can still find him in the afterlife. Simply, he will force you to work off your sin before he will accept you.

I’m not sure that I understand your last statement.

So the eternal state of Hell isn’t an indication that all sin is equal–simply that the choice to ignore God cannot be changed after death. Sinners who do repent go to Purgatory, and in my understanding the amount of time that must be spent there does vary dependent on the quantity and severity of all sins committed that were not worked off in life.

The concept of Purgatory is not based upon any scripture that I know of.

[Sage_Rat]

@KRM

I’m not sure that I understand your last statement.

The concept of Purgatory is not based upon any scripture that I know of.

I was refering to Purgatory.
Purgatory may not be “in the Bible” doctrine, but that still doesn’t mean it isn’t an official Christian teaching (dependent, of course, on offshoot.) Certainly the Bible does foreshadow the general idea of time to atone after death, even if no set name had yet been determined for it.

[Nars_Glinley]

@JThunder

No. Those punishments were administered by man, but ordained by God. Moreover, their purpose was NOT to get the sinner to repent, as evidenced by the fact that some of those sins merited capital punishment (i.e. death).

Yes, the punishment was certainly ordained by God but I don’t see that that implies that it isn’t for the purposes of repentance. Even though some sins required the death penalty, it would be possible (and I assume encouraged) for one to repent before carrying out the sentence.

Again, that simply doesn’t follow.

Suppose that two students get a failing grade in a class. They get the same punishment (flunking) even if one student did better than the other. Receiving the same punishment does not mean that they did equally well (or equally badly).

Again, it depends on your perspective. To the child, he might compare himself to another and say, “I did better than he did”. A parent or the school might not compare one child’s grades to the other. The point is, they both failed. This is very similar to how I look at life, it’s a pass/fail test.

And if that doesn’t convince you, what about John 19:11, where Jesus himself spoke of “the greater sin”?

Again, I urge you to read the article that I cited. It explains this matter in greater detail.

I did read the article, I just don’t agree with most of it. As far as John 19:11 is concerned, Jesus was fully God and fully human. I believe that at this point, he was speaking from a human perspective.

It’s obvious that I’m not going to convince anyone with my “perspective” argument so I guess I’ll just let it go. If I can’t get my wife to believe me, I’m not going to have any luck with you guys either.

[Nars_Glinley]

@Sage Rat

I was refering to Purgatory.
Purgatory may not be “in the Bible” doctrine, but that still doesn’t mean it isn’t an official Christian teaching (dependent, of course, on offshoot.) Certainly the Bible does foreshadow the general idea of time to atone after death, even if no set name had yet been determined for it.

I am not able to adequately discuss Purgatory as it was never taught to me. But I can’t even think of a scripture that I would consider foreshadowing atonement after death. The parable of Lazarus and the rich man would seem to indicate just the opposite.

[Walloon]

From The Catholic Encyclopedia:

All sins are not equal before God, nor dare anyone assert that the daily faults of human frailty will be punished with the same severity that is meted out to serious violation of God’s law.

[Walloon]

@KRM

But I can’t even think of a scripture that I would consider foreshadowing atonement after death.

II Machabees, xii, 43-46

It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

As the Catholic Encyclopedia says,

The proofs for the Catholic position, both in Scripture and in Tradition, are bound up also with the practice of praying for the dead. For why pray for the dead, if there be no belief in the power of prayer to afford solace to those who as yet are excluded from the sight of God?

[Nars_Glinley]

@Walloon

II Machabees, xii, 43-46As the Catholic Encyclopedia says,

As you can probably tell, I’m not a Catholic and am therefore not versed in the writings of the Machabees. Obviously, the idea of Purgatory is one of the fundamental differences between Catholics and Protestants. So, I will alter my previous comment to say that I don’t know of any foreshadowing in the Protestant version of the Bible.

[Sage_Rat]

@KRM

As you can probably tell, I’m not a Catholic and am therefore not versed in the writings of the Machabees. Obviously, the idea of Purgatory is one of the fundamental differences between Catholics and Protestants. So, I will alter my previous comment to say that I don’t know of any foreshadowing in the Protestant version of the Bible.

I was thinking principally of Revelations. Going through it, chapters 2 (repentance is #1), 9 (suffering to bring about repentance), 11 (forces people to be killed and lay rotting for days before bringing to Himself), 14… 14 is rather good:

@Revelations

Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.
And I heard a voice from heaven, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps.
And they *sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth.
These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves chaste. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb.
And no lie was found in their mouth; they are blameless.

The “first” to make their way to the Lord will be the chaste and honest (I assume these to be priests?) This indicates that being less pure will take you longer to reach God.

etc.