I guess one point here is what “forgiveness” means in terms of action. Do you have to let the forgiven party back into your life in any way at all? If the forgiven party demands it because “you’ve forgiven me; if you don’t [interact with me/let me see my grandkids/whatever], it’s meaningless!”?
No just because you let go of the hate doesn’t mean you have to let yourself be open to being hurt again. Forgiveness is granted, trust is earned. Broken trust doubly so.
I think you are projecting your own issues with your own kids onto other people. What the OP said was his parents left him alone with a dentist who physically abused him, and who was later arrested for sexually abusing children. And they don’t seem to care.
Pulling people’s teeth and performing dental surgery w/o anaesthetics is a form of torture. I had a dentist try it once and it was extremely painful and I had to ask for novocaine. Oral surgery w/o anesthetics was one of the methods used in Iraqi prisons on political prisoners. His parents left him alone with someone who arguably tortured him. Of course he/she is upset.
This was something which I had not understood, and which had caused me a lot of grief. How do you let go, while still protecting yourself.
I grew up in hell. Child abuse or neglect is actually much more common than what many people know, but fortunately really severe environments aren’t that common.
It was insane. One of the worse physical beatings I endured was by giving my father the wrong sized spoon for breakfast. Getting beat, kicked, thrown into walls and desks, picked up by my hair, the whole works, simply because of a tiny mistake made by a six-year-old.
I had set the table for our standard Saturday morning egg breakfast and my mother said we were going to have cereal. I replaced the plates, removed the forks and knives and put out dishes. Only my father could eat cereal with a tablespoon (children had to use teaspoons) and I forgot to replace his spoon. For that, he could have sent me to the hospital, as he did with my siblings at times. Most likely for similar offenses.
How do you deal with this? For years, I couldn’t forgive him because I had thought that forgiving him was accepting it. That level of physical, emotional, mental and sexual abuse was and is not acceptable. It’s not even really understandable. He would have been better off killing himself had he not been able to control himself any better.
But, continuing to hate was not useful. And I had to find a way of dealing with it. And while it wasn’t acceptable, or even excusable, it did help to look at things a little more objective. He had had a really bad upbringing as well. His mother was nuts and his father had abandoned the family. He never learned how to control his emotions and didn’t know how to live a normal life.
I don’t like the term “forgiving.” I don’t think it’s the right word. I found a different concept.
It sucked that I was in the environment, but that was how it was. For me, it’s letting go, realizing it wasn’t me, it was him. I just happened to be in his way.
I don’t have to “forgive” him because he’s not asking for forgiveness. But I can let go. Some people are more upset about random acts of life, but it’s easier for me to think of this as just a random act.
I happened to be the product of a sperm and an egg of two really fucked up individuals. Childhood happened and I needed to survive. I did physically and it came to the point where I needed to go on. Shit happened and I chose to no longer let that define who I am.
It’s easier with my father. He’s dead so I don’t have to deal with it. Harder with my mother because she’s still alive. While she’s not intentionally damaging to me, she’s still toxic in that she gets depressed and says things which really hurt me. So, I limit my relationship with her.
I don’t need to “forgive” her in the sense of allowing myself to be vulnerable to her again, but I found I needed to let go of the anger in order for me to move on. I’ll never have a Leave it to Beaver relationship with my mother. She has chosen to not work on her issues. But, I don’t have to be pissed about the things which happened so long ago.
Although I understand what you’re getting at, I think the word forgiveness is problematic. The idea that you must figure out how to forgive the truly unforgivable in order to become whole, can just add more weight to the victim’s burden.
In my experience, the operative concept is letting go. Don’t waste your life desperately wanting or expecting something from someone that you’re probably never going to get. Don’t pile one resentment on top of another, every time the apology or even the simple acknowledgment you’re looking for is not forthcoming. You will tear yourself to pieces that way, over and over again, while those who were responsible for your pain just carry on the way they always have. There is nothing more spiritually crushing than resentment, even when it is justified by almost any conceivable measure. Let it go. Let them go. Live your life.
I don’t mean to suggest that any/all of this applies to nearwildheaven; but drawing on what I’ve learned elsewhere (with a generic “you”), I think the most important key to recovering from trauma is to stop acting like a victim – even if you really are a victim. As long as you keep thinking of yourself that way, you will be ceding control of your emotional circumstances to someone else. One of the first steps is to say, I may have been a helpless victim then, but I am not helpless now. I don’t have to put myself in an untenable position by going to family gatherings. * It is OK* to refuse to do that! Your parents may try to make you feel small or ungrateful and guilty or fill-in-the-blank for it, but that’s their problem, not yours. How they feel is not your problem. What they tell other people is not your problem. Let go and wash your hands. Stick with people who make you feel better, not worse.
None of this is easy, and if you can’t seem to get over the hump or the inner turmoil on your own, get help! With time and distance, and the confidence that comes from taking control of your life and taking responsibility for your own happiness in the here and now, letting go won’t be so hard. Someday, you may even be able to face such previously fraught encounters with equanimity. Not so much because you’ve forgiven anyone, but because you’ve accepted the fact that you can’t change them and quit expecting something that they can’t give you – perhaps even something you discover you don’t need any more.
I should have refreshed before I posted! But I see we’re on the same page. How you managed to come out on the other side of such heartbreaking circumstances, and make a better place for yourself, must surely encourage others who are struggling with despondency.
I’ve done all of these things. I’m still in therapy (for clinical depression). The old arguments and events still replay in my head daily.
It’s really good to see others have the same ideas.
The thing which drives me most toward taking care of myself is the need to be a good parent for my kids.
They are growing up in such a different environment. Just normal kids who are allowed to have emotions, to be unhappy or angry at times. They feel free to ask questions to their parents. It’s so funny, I had no real idea how f*cked up my family was until I had kids and started to think of how I would have reacted. How can you beat a child for a simple mistake?
I don’t get the sexual abuse part either. Why would you molest your own children? And after you molest your daughters, why tell your son about it? Sick.
I haven’t been the nicest guy in the world, but I’ve never made anyone else get down on their knees and lick my shoes, like my father would do. Sick, again.
My mother wasn’t abusive, but she’s unable to see that others have emotional needs. She was good with us, until we were about 5, at which point she just switched off. I never figured out what happened. She got depressed, attempted suicide a few times, went through some self-harm stuff like cutting and pouring boiling water on her hands. It was my job to take care of her needs.
I still struggle. But I’m finding it much easier to let go. I also find I do much better when I concentrate on helping others who are worse off than me.
Two of my siblings didn’t survive that well. They have really serious mental issues and have never been able to hold down jobs for very long.
Another brother, the oldest is off in a different world. His kids are estranged and his wife is nuts. He didn’t apologize to me when I confronted him for raping me as a child. Instead, he just told me that I could never understand how much pain it had caused him over the years. Narcissism is hereditary, it appears.
This is another example of the advantages of letting go. I wasted years of my life being angry about all of this, including being really pissed about my brother. I spend many a night at a bar fantasizing about the revenge I’d take. As far as I know, it never hurt him back, but it contributed to my becoming an alcoholic. Self-medication is a bitch.
I found that I no longer have the luxury of allowing myself to not let go. It would lead either to me going back to drink or falling into that deep dark hell of severe depression.
That’s the real bottom line, isn’t it?
It’s not always easy. Almost never in fact. Glad your getting help. For me It’s like my life didn’t start till I joined the Army. Everything before then happened to somebody else. But even before the Army I had two lives one at home that I spent as much as I could in my head and one away from home that I would spend with other people. Still to this day I don’t like having others around me at my home. Few of my friends even know where I live.
Well, if you think about it there’s no reason crying, drinking and talking about problems should change anything.
Action is required. That means you choose to change your behavior and your belief system.
When the old tape begins to play you stop it. Then you reframe it. Every time. Practice. At the end of thirty days you should notice a difference. At the end of a year you will do it automatically.
ETA: **hotflungwok[/, I was speaking in generalities. In your specific case, you should run this by your therapist to see if it is appropriate for your stage of recovery.
Pretty much. Hate kills you more than anything.
Once my mother dies, I don’t think I’ll talk to any of my family in the States because it just isn’t worth it. But I’ve pretty much let go of all the anger and pain.
mispost sorry
The problem is that there are multiple definitions of forgiveness. While it never means saying that what you did was okay, some do use it to mean that you no longer let it bother you at all, meaning that you resume the previous relationship with the person.
I personally treat them as two different levels of forgiveness. There are some things that I will forgive completely, essentially acting as if it didn’t happen. These things usually involve minor offenses by those who are genuinely sorry. But there are other things that, like the stuff in the OP, are major and were carried out by people who still do not care. They don’t get full forgiveness. They just get the form where I stop holding a grudge.
That’s a bit simplistic I’ve been taking action for over twenty years - individual, group, behavioral, cognitive therapy, I’ve tried every drug out there and even had ECT. Most people will see results from undergoing one or more of these actions but many people don’t. I know you meant to be encouraging but it’s kind of disparaging to those of us who struggle for years.
It’s also really important to realize that it’s not just hard work, but it can be terrifying. In fact, sometimes that’s the best sign it’s really starting to work, but it also makes you want to stop and back away.
Your life experiences and how they’ve shaped you are part of the foundation of everything for you. They influence your emotions, how you interpret and react to things, your decisions, everything. You start working with your therapist and after a bit, you notice actual improvement! Wow! This is so awesome!
But after a little bit, it can change from feeling great to feeling terrifying. Suddenly you realize that you’re changing what feel like core aspects of you. It’s frightening and threatening in a way. If I am able to actually change these things that are completely connected to my sense of self, then who am I? Am I destroying the person I’ve always been, or am I discovering the real me?
The reality is that both are you. But it takes awhile to truly understand that. The transitional period is brutal, though.
My son just had a surface cavity filled without anesthesia, the DR said it wouldnt be required. He did fine and said it didn’t hurt at all. Same Dr had to do a big cavity on the same day with my other son but couldnt give him any more novacane legally than she already gave him and he could still feel, so it didnt get done at all. Have to take him somewhere to get a general anesthesia instead. Depends on if the cavity goes through. That being said, working anywhere with nerves or removing teeth? Please, no way!
My dad had his tonsils removed without any type of numbing or anesthesia when he was a kid and I can tell it effected him deeply and probably why he refuses to visit a dr or dentist to this day.
Wow, I really hope you never have children. This person’s parents are horrible fucking people for not listening to their child telling them what was going on. That is absolutely horrific that he was doing dental work without anesthesia. Sick people in the world. Including yourself for thinking that is ok for parents to do that.
Just makes me sick.
Image the great future you could create, and love living, if you could stop clutching onto your past.
:eek: :mad: :smack:
How old was he? At one time, it was believed that very young children didn’t feel pain, and if they did, it didn’t matter because they wouldn’t remember it. Until 20 or so years ago, newborn circumcisions were often done without anesthesia for this reason too. :eek: More than one parent has told me that had they known this, they would not have done it, or demanded anesthesia if they wished it done.