How do I accept? (long, personal)

I couldn’t decide whether to call this thread “how do I forgive?” “how do I forget?” or “how do I move on?” but the above title seemed the most appropriate.

I’ve hung on the fringes of the Straight Dope for a long time, participating occasionally. I’ve always been amazed and impressed by the advice that is given to people dealing with difficult circumstances. I’m hoping that someone might say something in response to this thread that might help me out. I know in these types of threads that it is important to be as complete and accurate as possible, so I’ll try to set everything down, but it’s kind of long and self-involved.

I am 30 years old, happily married with one son and a daughter on the way. I tend to think of myself as fairly progressive and non-judgmental, but the last few months have caused me to question that.

I am an only child. When I was 19 months old, my father, a military pilot, was killed during training. My mother miscarried what would have been my sister and was understandably devastated. I have no real memory of my (real, birth?) father.

When I was five years old, my mother remarried. She was 31 at the time and married someone who was 40 years old. My mother, (new/step) father (and now I) are all professionals in the same field.

My stepfather has helped raise me since I was five years old. I pretty much consider him to be my father and don’t even use the step- part when I think or speak about him. He has three children from a prior marriage. So, I have two stepsisters 4 and 6 years older than me and a step brother 8 years older. I’m not particularly close to my siblings, since they generally lived with their mother.

My parents had a seemingly ideal marriage. Everybody considered them an ideal couple, both very successful professionally and holding together a family. After about 22 years of marriage, which is shortly after I graduated from grad school and was focused on my own family, my father and mother became more distant. I later learned that they had stopped being intimate entirely.

It turns out that my father had an affair with a co-worker that lasted approximately three or four years before being discovered last fall. My mother was absolutely devastated and is just beginning to come out from it now. My father moved out of their house last November, and divorce proceedings are underway.

My father is continuing the relationship with the woman he had the affair with. She is about ten years younger than my mother (20 years younger than dad) and apparently has a young daughter (not his).

During the separation, my wife and I were in the position of having to hold my mother together emotionally. She was, and still is, in counseling, but we were the ones who tried to help her through the crying and the pain. My father virtually never saw my mother and followed the brilliant strategy of not giving her any information about why he had the affair, when it started, whether he still loved my mother, whether he wanted to reconcile or divorce, etc. Consequently, I feel like I got to deal with all of the trauma that my father’s decision caused, while he got to walk away.

When my mom found out about the affair, I promised that I would try to remain neutral and not take sides. I felt like I owed my father that much and I was unwilling to give up the only father I ever knew. My siblings adopted similar strategies, although they had it significantly easier since they weren’t the ones in the position of holding mom together.

Unfortunately, my father compounded the problem by lying to me about things related to their relationship. I was left wondering whether I could ever trust my own father.

For the last several years, our family had gone down to Mexico for a family vacation (my parents, siblings, their spouses and children, etc.) The vacation was in February or March. My wife and I decided not to go because my wife was five months pregnant, and this part of Mexico is not known as a hotbed of emergency prenatal care. However, my siblings went. Apparently with their consent, my father took his mistress. (I admit the term is perjorative, but it is technically correct in this context.)

This, unsurprisingly, caused a new round of pain, crying and grief for my mother as she was understandably upset that my father had taken another woman to “our” place. I have to admit that I was also shocked that she went and that my siblings apparently approved in advance of this.

After they returned, I sat down with my father for about an hour and explained to him how upset I was and how upset my mom had been. I told him that I was trying not to take sides, but that what he had done was fundamentally WRONG. While marriages may come apart, and people may fall in love with someone else, the appropriate course of behavior is to end one relationship before beginning another. I also told him that while I would forgive him (or at least try to?), that I would never accept the other woman into my life and that she was never to be around my son. My wife feels even more strongly about the last point than I do.

After this, my mother went on an extended vacation with a friend of hers. During the vacation, she seems to have moved on past the crying and is now in an anger/acceptance mode.

But, I am pretty conflicted at this point. I want to continue to have a relationship with my father, but feel I can’t trust him. While I am no saint, the concepts of loyalty, honor, and faithfulness are important to me and I feel like he trampled all over them. I don’t want to walk away from him, but I don’t really want to see or speak to him either.

I feel clearer about my siblings in that I can’t understand how they could be so accepting. I know that their ultimate allegiance would be with dad, as mine would be with mom. But, how could they tolerate, let alone accept, the presence of the woman who has caused this rift? As it stands, I have absolutely zero desire to ever speak with them again. This hurts, as I don’t want to see my children grow up without their cousinsm even in a distant relationship.

So, given this long monologue, does anyone have any words of advice for me? How do I move past this and reconstruct a relationship with my father? Should I try at all? What do I do with my siblings?

On a related note, am I being judgmental about things I have no business judging? One part of me thinks that this should be between Mom and Dad and that I shouldn’t make it about me. Another part says that what he did is fundamentally wrong and that it had severly impacted my life and that it is wishful thinking at best to believe that it is just between Mom and Dad.

Squooshed, while I do see your point, and I think your outrage is somewhat warranted, I believe your anger should lie only with your father. Not with the other woman, and not with your stepsiblings. Their mother lived without their/your father for many years; you cannot expect their “allegiance” to be with your mother. This “mistress” of your father’s is, honestly, just another woman who isn’t their mother; why should you expect them to sacrifice their family vacation in a protest against her presence?

And blaming The Other Woman is a cop-out; your father is the one who chose to have an affair with her, and her reasons for agreeing to it are really not for you to judge. She isn’t your problem. Your father is.

So while I agree that it is natural for you to feel outraged on your mother’s behalf, I don’t think it will help matters for you to not see/speak to your father. You didn’t say what he said in response to your conversation with him; I doubt he expects you to forgive him immediately…but remember, too, that you are a grown man, and it’s not as if he left your mother and you when you were at a young and impressionable age. He didn’t leave you; he left your mother. At your age, there is a difference.

So while I think that your response to this situation is only natural, remember that however hurt your mother is, they are both adults and it would really be tragic if their relationship permanently damaged your relationship with your dad.

Just my $0.02. Give it time. :frowning: And good luck.

I’m curious as to why you feel so strongly about this woman. It seems to me that your father caused this rift, not the woman. Wasn’t it your father who promised to be faithful to your mother, not this woman ? Isn’t it your father who lied and broke his vows and caused a lot of hurt ?

I would be more angry with your father lying to you and breaking his vows. The woman didn’t make your father do anything. I’ve never understand why the ‘other woman’ seems to get most of the blame, when she wasn’t the one who promised to forsake all others.

If you think you can work it out with your father and maintain a relationship, give it a try. But don’t ‘judge’ the woman or refuse to have anything to do with her, or you may be left out of your fathers new life, even though you’d rather still have a place in it.

I agree that only blaming the Other Woman is not right—your father and her both share equal blame. She’s a secondary character. She wouldn’t be in your father’s life had he not pursued her.

But the Other Woman is not blameless. She willingly and knowingly got involved with a married man. She let this go on for several years. Knowing that he was sneaking behind his wife’s back in order to be with her. Helping him betray his wife. He did the actual betraying, but no one forced him to do it. And she helped him all the way.

A lot of women would not get involved with a married man because they don’t think it’s right to help a man betray his wife. She decided to go ahead and do it. While it’s up to you to decide what you should do in regards to this woman (cut her off, be distant but polite, whatever), I don’t blame you at all for seeing her part in this whole mess and feeling that she carries some responsibility for the break-up.

(Of course, had she refused your dad, he may have found another woman with which to have an affair. But that’s not the point. She did say “yes”, which made his betrayal of your mom all the easier for him.)

I agree with Goo that you may have to tolerate this woman in order to keep your dad in your life. But I don’t blame you for not being delighted with her actions.

How did you sneak in there, Audrey? :slight_smile:

Audrey and Goo: Perhaps I undersold it in the original post, but I am quite angry with my father and I made that point clearly to him when we spoke. His response was all that I could ask for, in that he accepted the responsibility, said that he didn’t mean to hurt anyone, etc. However, like yosemitebabe, I believe that it takes two to tango. This woman was someone who worked with my father for years and knew my mother. I don’t have much but scorn for someone who gets involved with a married person and that mindset long predates this current problem.

I suppose, thinking about it, that it’s easier to be outraged against someone I’ve never met than against someone I have known and looked up to (what seems like) my entire life. Perhaps there’s a bit of transference at work here. I’m still not entirely comfortable with having her (or even Dad really) around my son. It seems to me that they have demonstrated that they will put their personal interests above commitments to other people, and that’s certainly not a moral message I’m interested in passing on to my children.

I guess that I’ll start rethinking my “line in the sand” about her.

An affair is a symptom of a marriage in trouble; it’s very, very rarely the cause. I don’t know your parents, but would be willing to guess that their marriage was going downhill long before your Dad became involved with the other woman. The blame for the marriage going badly belongs to both your mother and your father; the blame for the affair is solely on your father’s shoulders. It was not a good thing for him to do, but it’s unfortunately a not-so-uncommon response. One of the things that happens in strained marriages is that people get starved for affection, kindness, and (face it) sex. When someone comes along to a person who is quite literally starving for these things, it’s quite easy for them to fall into an extramarital relationship.

Please don’t confuse me - I’m not accepting or saying it’s OK to have an affair! I’m simply saying that given the circumstances, people become vulnerable and do things that they wouldn’t normally do. Much like a starving person would gladly eat rotting meat, a person starved for attention sometimes compromises his or her own ethics and morals.

You have no idea what “the other woman” went through during all this. I’ve read enough about affairs (they’ve happened in my family) that I know it’s not all champagne and bubbles and sneaking off to exotic locations and giggling about the poor wife left at home. Your father may have misrepresented his marriage to the other woman, saying he was filing for divorce before anything physical ever happened. They may have become emotionally involved long before anything else happened. The other woman may have woken up one day and realized she was in WAY over her head with a man who was MUCH more married than she first believed, but now has such an emotional connection to him that cutting it off is next to impossible. Maybe she DID try to cut it off and your father pursued her. Anything is possible. I’m giving her the benefit of the doubt because I’m assuming if she was just a cheap whore your father would not have continued the relationship with her after his divorce.

What I’m getting at is that people do things they normally wouldn’t do when going through hard times in their lives. They become vulnerable to things that they would never do in more normal times. Chances are that your Dad feels horribly guilty over the whole mess. Have you ever had a one on one conversation with your Dad about the whole thing - from when his marriage started going downhill to where it is now? Have you ever talked to “the other woman” about her role in all this? A little understanding goes a long way… and I’m willing to bet that both your father and his new girlfriend/wife have lost a LOT more sleep over this situation that you have.

I have to second Athena. An affair or two has occurred in my realm of the world. Odds are they tried to break it off because it was wrong several times and that they do feel terribly guilty about all of this, but as Athena said, when you are starved you do unrational things. He is taking responsibility and all that, so he can’t be that morally corrupt.

Especially since your father is choosing to stay with the other woman, odds are that despite things looking good on the surface, the marriage to your mother was not in great shape to begin with. Since your father is not willing to share the "why"s with your mother, he may very well be trying to protect from worse hurts, in terms of why he was unhappy to begin with.

Unless you plan to tell your son the whole story, I don’t see why I would deprive him of a grandfather because of all this. Just because your father had a lapse of judgment in one very sensitive area doesn’t make him satan’s right hand man. He was a good father to you and could be a good grandfather to your children.

I am not saying you should forgive him immediately or pretend nothing happened. You need to do what you need to do and your father respects that. I am just saying that people make mistakes and that doesn’t make them evil.

Yeah, Athena may be right about both the mom and dad being responsible for the break-up of the marriage. However, I am hesistant to think that mom may have been partially at fault for the problems in the marriage. I, too have witnessed infidelity, and no, I didn’t think the wife was to blame for the problems in the marriage. Certainly not “enough” to blame. The husband just wanted to screw around. Sometimes that’s how it is.

I also don’t wish to paint the Other Woman as a shameless hussy quite yet—we don’t know her, we don’t know what those two (your dad and her) have gone through. However, a lot of women have a strict “No Married Men” policy, and I don’t necessarily think it’s that hard of a policy to stick to. Especially if you know the wife, which this woman did. And even if he did pursue her, so what? She can’t say no? She can’t back off? She’s powerless? I don’t think so.

Also, how hard did the dad try to repair his failing marriage? Did he seek marriage counseling? Tell the mom that he was having trouble and wanted to resolve the trouble with her? Did the mom have any clue that there were problems? How could this affair go on for years and her not know that something was amiss? Obviously I have no clue as to what answers are, but I would be more apt to be sympathetic towards the dad if he tried to repair things in his marriage (but it didn’t work out). But if he just got restless, bored, or felt unfulfilled and decided to start an affair (while wifey at home was happy and oblivious) then that’s a different matter altogether.

Sometimes, just sometimes, one party in a broken marriage just does not behave well at all. And they make BAD choices, and refuse to choose other better choices when they are faced with troubles. This may (or may not) have been the case with your father and this Other Woman. It’s hard to really know with these people’s personal lives, I suppose.

If you want to maintain a relationship with your father, I guess you may have to accept (or at least purge it from your mind) some of this stuff with your dad and the Other Woman. Even if you are not totally happy with it. But I don’t blame you for feeling conflicted about it all.

Yeah, Athena may be right about both the mom and dad being responsible for the break-up of the marriage. However, I am hesistant to think that mom may have been partially at fault for the problems in the marriage. I, too have witnessed infidelity, and no, I didn’t think the wife was to blame for the problems in the marriage. Certainly not “enough” to blame. The husband just wanted to screw around. Sometimes that’s how it is.

I also don’t wish to paint the Other Woman as a shameless hussy quite yet—we don’t know her, we don’t know what those two (your dad and her) have gone through. However, a lot of women have a strict “No Married Men” policy, and I don’t necessarily think it’s that hard of a policy to stick to. Especially if you know the wife, which this woman did. And even if he did pursue her, so what? She can’t say no? She can’t back off? She’s powerless? I don’t think so.

Also, how hard did the dad try to repair his failing marriage? Did he seek marriage counseling? Tell the mom that he was having trouble and wanted to resolve the trouble with her? Did the mom have any clue that there were problems? How could this affair go on for years and her not know that something was amiss? Obviously I have no clue as to what answers are, but I would be more apt to be sympathetic towards the dad if he tried to repair things in his marriage (but it didn’t work out). But if he just got restless, bored, or felt unfulfilled and decided to start an affair (while wifey at home was happy and oblivious) then that’s a different matter altogether.

Sometimes, just sometimes, one party in a broken marriage just does not behave well at all. And they make BAD choices, and refuse to choose other better choices when they are faced with troubles. This may (or may not) have been the case with your father and this Other Woman. It’s hard to really know with these people’s personal lives, I suppose.

If you want to maintain a relationship with your father, I guess you may have to accept (or at least purge it from your mind) some of this stuff with your dad and the Other Woman. Even if you are not totally happy with it. But I don’t blame you for feeling conflicted about it all.

Oh good grief. I only clicked once to submit. Honestly!

Oh good grief. I only clicked once to submit. Honestly!

suuuuure you did! lol!

Hey! Not fair! How come I get mutant double posts and you dont? :wink:

I can answer a few questions from above (also being involved with this mess).

Dad made little to no attempt to repair his failling marriage. He was asked frequently to attend marriage counseling - even by his children. He refused. In fact, he refused marriage counseling even after he was asked to leave the house. He did finally agree to see a personal counselor - the effect of that is questionable.

He never told Mom that he was having problems either personally or with the marriage. He still denies it to this day that she was in anyway the cause of his actions. That may or may not be entirely true. There were some things going on in his life at the time that this affair started that made it not surprising (in some ways) that it happened. At the time things went south he became a grandfather for the first time, things were not going as easily at work as they had in the past. Around that time Mom had some health problems that altered her mood/personality a bit. She didn’t go psycho or anything, but she became more clingy. Dad is very, very afraid of growing old and dying - all these things were reminders that he was not getting any younger.

The big problem in the picture has been Dad’s steadfast refusal to face the consequences of his actions. In fact ,when Mom basically caught him in bed with the Other, he called Squooshed to calm her down and make things better. This is a man who, at his age, ought to be able to say “Yeah, I screwed up big.” and then make a decision about what happens next. He won’t.

Also, please don’t have the impression that Mom was unaware of any problems. She was very aware that something was not right. He continually denied an affair, he refused to admit he might be depressed, and he denied any other physical issues. For years Mom has been trying to drag out of Dad what was wrong, but he shuts up tighter than a clam at low tide when he doesn’t want to talk.

As for the Mistress. She may not be a hussy. She may even be a nice, intelligent human being. She does not carry ALL of the blame by any means. None the less, she is not going to be anywhere near my kids. She has demonstrated a lack of respect for family (remember she has brought her small child into this as well - breaking up her own relationship in favor of this new one), a lack of respect for marriage, and a lack of respect for herself. She has helped to contribute to the destruction of a home. This is the kind of person I am supposed to hold up for my children to use as a role model? Nuh-uh! I don’t think so. I will bow to hubby’s wishes in respect to his father and siblings, but not her.

For some reason, I was picturing the ‘other woman’ as a single lady, not as a married woman herself, which is why I came to her defence.

Since you’ve told us she was also married and broke her vows as well, I think they deserve each other and I understand more where you are coming from. I still don’t understand why she is a worse role model than your FIL, I would’ve expected your treatment of both of them to be the same, to be honest. Doesn’t sound like FIL is much of a good example for your kids either.

Either way, you both as a couple have to decide whether or not you want these people in your lives. If you think their morals are harmful or something you don’t want your kids exposed to, go ahead and cut contact, it’s your right and choice. I just think allowing the FIL access to your kids, but denying the ‘other woman’ is a bit hypocritical and illogical, since they both displayed the same lack of morals and respect for family that you are objecting to, yet FIL gets a free pass. If those attitudes are not something you want your kids exposed to, why does it matter who the person is that has the attitudes ? YMMV, of course.

Just by being dragged into the mess by FIL (by him calling his son to smooth things over) I wouldn’t be speaking with him for a long time. That alone would be crossing a line for me.

IOW, my opinion is you both need to think long and hard about whether you want the father in your lives. If not, go ahead and let him know why, then move on. If so, I think it is hypocritical to judge the ‘other woman’ by a much harsher standard. I would be of the opinion of both or neither, not “well, we’ll talk to you Dad, but that woman you love ? Don’t want her anywhere near me, she is immoral”. (not saying those are your words, of course, just trying to illustrate my point of view)

Couple things:

  1. You don’t have to decide anything right now. In fact, you can wait years, and I recomend that you do so. Tell your Dad “Look, I’m sorry, but I’m too angry right now to be anything like rational. If you want me to know anything, I’ll be in touch with (someone). I’ll call you when–and if–I’m ready to have a relationship with you.”

  2. Be careful to seperate “wanting to protect your kids” from “wanting to punish your father by withholding his grandkids” I get the sense that you are confusing the two issues. He’s not your child, and it is not your place to punish him. He may NEVER pay for what he did to your mother. That may not be fair, but it’s not your job to make it fair, and trying to will only hurt you worse. Now then, as far as being an example for your kids go, remember that you are the role model here, not your dad. Do you want to show them the example that when someone you love screws up real bad, you cut them off completely? Would you cut your kids off for doing this? If your just too angry to be around your dad, if seeing him fills you with such pain and loathing that you can’t control yourself and you just have to distance yourself, that’s fine. That’s NORMAL. And it’s a good lesson for kids: when someone makes you so angry that you can’t be kind to them (and this happens), the thing for adults to to is to remove themselves, not punish the other person. But this is very different from wanting to protect the chldren from his influence.

  3. Regarding the new woman: I, personally, think that you are almost certainly transfering anger and jealousy here. But that’s ok. it IS easier to be mad at someone when there is no ambiguity involved. If you don’t want a relationship of any sort with her, be up front about hat with your dad: “Dad, I’m sorry, but when I see that woman I sm so filled with anger and rage about the pain Mom’s been through that I can’t even stand to be in the same room. It’s not something I am proud of, but it’s not something I am in control of. If you want to have any sort of a relationship with me, it will have to be seperate from [name]”. But you have to mean this: he may say “Son, it’s the two of us or nothing”, and if so, you walk away.

Again, you don’t have to set out any ultamatiums now, and I would strongly recomend you gove things a few years to shake themselves out.

While it may be both his mother and father who are to blame for their relationship disintegrating, that’s not what’s making him angry. What is is the reaction his father had to it - getting another woman. Anger at only his father seems pretty appropriate to me.

I have nothing else to say, but I hope you work things out.

I don’t think things need to be decided right now either (like Manda Jo said). I think we/ he will lie low for a while and see how things progress. They seem to be getting marginally better - Dad is willing to talk to Mom (Finally!) and Mom is in a slightly more rational place now. We will see.

As for punishing Dad by withholding grandkids that is not the case. It would be much easier if it were. There wouldn’t be any question. I don’t approve of his behavior at all. If it were left soley up to me I would probably be done with him entirely for a couple of reasons. One, his behavior changed drastically when he started this affair. He used to be a very gregarious and fun person to be around. He is now withdrawn, obnoxious, and unpredictable. If the person he was before came back I probably would be more inclined to accept it. I don’t see any signs of that person re-emerging. Also, this is not an isolated event for Dad. He is 0-2 in the marriage department. His first marriage ended EXACTLY the same way - right down to taking his mistress away with him on a trip with divorce papers waiting for him when he got back. Maybe that is just his way of getting out of a marriage - I don’t know. I have a very difficult time agreeing to let my kids be around him for these reasons. Dad seems to have difficulty with the concept of fidelity and honesty. While Squooshed and I are the primary role models for ourSugarBear, the fact is everyone in our family who he has contact with is a role model. He sees how the whole family acts and learns from it. I do not want him to learn that it is ok to act this way. And for the record - when SugarBear grows up and he were to pull this crap - he would get a long and loud earful from Mom and then probably Dad.

Ultimately, the decision to allow Dad into our lives rests with Squooshed (sorry, hon). He knows that I am less than thrilled about having Dad around - but he is not my direct relation and therefore not my decision. I just think BOTH of his parents owe him one ENORMOUS apology for the way they have dragged him into the middle of this disaster and kept him there. Mom is aware of this (I am allowed to yell at her). I have yet to get a hold of Dad.

Upon hearing more details, I agree. This is a pattern of behavior and not a single mistake. I think I would take an extended break from contact with the couple in question.