Some Women's Low Self-Image and the Media

Great Debates
181

As much as this topic frustrates me, I’m glad to see folks talking about it. I think folks should talk about the psychological effects of the media’s advertising on a public that sits back and passively accepts what it sees without critically considering the merits of what is presented to them. I’ve half skimmed, half read this thread with interest and come away confused, angry, and feeling sorry for folks that are hung up on:

1.) the notion that fellas only like one type of body on a female. How could anyone think this? It’s tantamount to saying that men are automatons, programed to find attractive ONLY women with X features. Bullshit! Even if fellas are buying up posters of Pamela Anderson’s fake tits, they aren’t dating, screwing, and marrying Pammy’s tits. And what are real tits anyways, but fat, mammary glands, some nerves, and a few muscles all wrapped up in skin. In the real world, fellas are dating, screwing, and marrying a WIDE range of women of all shapes, colors, sizes, and intellectual persuasions. To think that fellas just want Twiggy is ILLOGICAL in the extreme and does females and males a serious disservice. I’m not saying there aren’t some fellas out there lusting after and only seeking living skeletons, but I think it’s safe to assume that a significant number of them aren’t doing so. If I meet a fella who wants Twiggy [shudder], then I’ll do my best to wish him happy hunting and get the hell out of his way because we couldn’t possibly have anything to say to each other. If he can’t look at me and ACCEPT me for who I am, well then he shouldn’t waste my time, and I sure as hell ain’t going to waste his. I’d much rather be alone and having the time of my life with myself than be with someone who is dissatisfied with what I have to offer.
2.) that women really feel like they are not beautiful/attractive if they aren’t as thin as Karen Carpenter tried to be [VERY BIG SHUDDER]. How could any woman think that just because Kate Moss is a size zero, that’s the size she needs to be too? I say, quit countin’ calories, and get a life! There are more important things going on in the world than being concerned because you ate that pint of Ben and Jerry’s Belgian Chocolate ice cream. Food is a wonderful thing, and I think that it’s something that we Americans take for granted. It’s so easy to say: “Oh I need to go on a diet,” when you have the means to buy food. If you on your last dollar and wondering how you going to make it for a month, though, dieting is the LAST thing on your mind. Believe me. Everytime I look in the mirror and see that I’ve put on a few or more than a few pounds, I smile because I think: Damn if I don’t look GOOD! Likewise, if I’ve lost a few pounds, I think I look fine too. Still, when I’m a few or more than a few pounds overweight, my hair and skin just glows even more than normal. :slight_smile: And I get that message reaffirmed by the whistles, hornblowing, and other stuff fellas do when they see a woman they admire walking down the street. [giggle] I’m not being conceited. I’m just saying that I LOVE MYSELF FOR WHO I AM, AND IT SHOWS, AND FELLAS DO RESPOND TO THAT.
3.) the reality that children and adults do not train themselves to think critically about the crap they see advertised everyday. Why do folks operate under the assumption that if the majority of their peers are jumping off a cliff, then that’s what they need to do too? If children are obsessing over looking like Calista Flockhart, then it’s time to take them in hand and ask them why they think that’s attractive? I mean really. What the hell are they thinking? Who told them that looking emaciated rather than developing brains capable of thinking and acting critically and responsibly will validate them as human beings, and ask them to provide you with at least one good reason why they are focusing more on superficial shit rather than more substantive issues? If you want to be healthy, then do an honest day’s labor, clean up the house, go build someone else a house, go for a walk, or find some other way to exercise, but don’t skimp on nutritious food that will help your mind and body grow and sustain your mind and body once it has developed to its full growth potential. [sigh]

Y’all might want to consult a video called “Still Killing Me Softly.” I forget who did it, but it’s basically a lecture where this scholar deconstructs ads for the illogical bunch of crap that they are that are in popular fashion magazines. Although it’s set in the late 70s/early 80s, it’s a fascinating exploration of the illogical world of advertising.

I don’t know if I’ve added anything to this debate or just ranted my frustration with some of the, to my mind, misguided but unfortunately realistic perspectives voiced in this thread. But take what I’ve said as you will and correct me if I’ve misinterpreted what folks had to say.

182

Hmmmm . . . .
Looks at self closely . . .
Fat? {Jiggle, jiggle, jounce.} Yup.
Nerves? Nope. {Pokes self in eye.} Correct that. Yup.
Muscles? {Looks at legs with good eye. Great legs.} Yup.
Skin? {Bites self – ouch, those pesky nerves again – tastes like uncooked skin}. Yup.
Mammary glands. {Looks and looks and looks with good eye.} Nope. No mammary glands.

Damn. I’m not a real tit. Oh well, back to the road of self discovery.

183

And I give you: The Other Side of The Coin.

I love people.

184

I know the media has been partly responsible for my whacked-out views of myself, but it wasn’t just the media.

I remember dreading walking down from a certain street where I grew up. I took the bus home - and if I missed the “P” bus (which dropped me off at the end of my street) I’d have to take the “L” bus, which dropped me several blocks uphill, and I’d have to walk down this busy street. It wasn’t the walk that bothered me, it was all the passing cars. It seemed like at least once a week, someone would just have to yell an insult at me, from a passing car. I really dreaded taking the “L” bus, I so dreaded walking down that street.

I got so bad, I just wouldn’t get new clothes. (What a waste! I was so ugly, after all, I only deservered to wear burlap sacks!) I felt totally like shit, I knew that I was worthless and substandard. I walked with my eyes cast downward. Looking at pictures of myself at the time, I wasn’t that fat, and I kinda had a “cute” thing going, in a way. But it didn’t matter, I KNEW I was ugly. After all, I was continually reminded of it, every time I came home on the “L” bus.

One day, when I was probably in my late teens, my parents sat me down and gave me a long lecture. They told me it was in my head. They said, “If you dress nicer, and have a better outlook, people will treat you better. You actually look very nice! Just believe in yourself!” I believed them. The next day, I dressed a little nicer. I walked with my head held high.

And then I took the “L” bus. And, of course, I got the same hoots and insults from passing cars. And I knew it was all a lie. It didn’t matter what I did, I was a leper, and that was all there was to it!

Ah, memory lane.

I have recovered from a lot of that baggage, but it still is very difficult for me to believe I’m not a leper. If you get it pounded into you, day after day, year after year - that’s a lot to overcome. And if you dare to complain about it, you get the pat answer ’ Well, just change yourself! Conform! That way they won’t have anything to harrass you about!" But that isn’t the point. Why should I have to struggle to “conform”, so I can enjoy the simple privilege of walking down and street and NOT be hooted at and insulted by strangers? I’m not expecting to be called a beauty queen. I’m just asking to not be accosted and insulted by strangers.

I’m sure the media has helped people feel entitled to do this sort of thing. But it’s also just boorish manners. I am a strong believer in karma, and I expect that all the jerks who felt entitled to hoot at strangers on the street have gotten theirs by now.

185

yosemitebabe, I hate having horns honked, or insults or lewd “compliments” shouted at me too. I’m walking down the street minding my own business, immersed in tranquil thoughts or plans for the day, and some idiot ruins my peace in the name of boorish flirting. Why folks feel this is necessary or even welcome to the insulted party, I don’t know. But like you I believe in karma too, and they will get theirs in the end. I’m glad you worked through the negative feelings you were having so that folks can now share in the beautiful person that you are. It takes a lot of guts and IMHO beauty to relate what you did in your post. Cheers, to you! :slight_smile:

Oh, and Muffin. I realized that I left blood vessels out of my description of the composition of tits. Please forgive me. Anyway, so you’ve concluded that you’re not a tit? Oh dear. I’m sorry. I hope you figure out what you really are eventually. [giggle]

Y’all have a good day.

186

Okay. I’ve been reading this thread since it started. I actually became a member, so i could reply to this.
Being a girl with “weight issues” (and that’s as personal as i’ll get right now). I am one of those who buys Vogue, Glamour, Cosmo, etc. I am one of those who compares herself to the stick thin figures, I wish I could healthily live as. I’ve tortured my body for a long time (I’m in my early 20’s), to be those women. I’ve listened to the compliments on my current body… how many women would love to be thin, yet have curvacious hips, good legs, etc. And I’ll say this, they can compliment all they want, tell me how beautiful I am, etc. But until I can believe it myself, I’ll continue to think of them as liars. I do believe the media pushes these images on women, and holds them as ideal.

Imagine my surprise, to be reading my Cosmo (July, I believe) and come across an article on how thin models have become in the past few years. (hmm, funny enough, this was surrounded on all pages by fashion spreads with… surprise!.. very, very thin women)This article, condemning modeling agencies for telling already very thin, pre-pubesent girls to lose weight, for fashion designers for refusing a model, because she’s too “fat” at a size 6.

Then there was a small sidebar with pictures of current models. Imagine my surprise to see that most men they showed the photos to, were very un-impressed by how thin the girls were. They all claimed to want someone with curves, a woman’s body. Did that help how I felt? No.

I read recently that model Carre Otis (used to be married to Mickey Rourke) is now a plus-size model, after kicking heroin, discontinuing starving herself, and gaining around 40 pounds I believe. Do you know what her stats are now? 5’10" 155 pounds. That is societie’s “plus-size”.

I know i’ve rambled, and as new poster, you probably all just want me to shut up. I’m not even sure what I’m trying to say here. All I know is that the media will continue to influence me, all the thin models I see everywhere will continue to strike jealousy and self -hatred. All the size 0 girls that surround me, I will continue to envy. All this, will continue, as long as I allow it to.

I will still look in the mirror every morning, and cry at my “beautiful body”

187

Welcome aboard. No we don’t want you to shut up. Its a darn good post.

188

This couldn’t be further from the truth. I myself (yes for the record I am male) absolutely love curves. Marilyn Monroe is considered the most beautiful woman ever by many people and she was somewhere around a size 12-14 from all accounts i’ve heard. Zoftig was really big in the beginning of the 20th century and the late 19th century. Michaelangelo portrayed Aphrodite with lot’s of curves, big hips and small breasts. The Greek perception of the ideal woman was very large.

So for all time is a rather ignorant statement to make, and pushing your insecurities onto your husband is rather cruel in my opinion. Nothing hurts me more than when my wife does that.

Also don’t forget that the fashion industry is run by gay guys and women almost exclusively and the women are picked by how the designer’s clothes will look on them and not sex appeal. Models in general are not usually all that sexy if you watch a runway show. In other words they are supposed to be walking mannaquins and clothes look better on a hanger.

Erek

189

I’ve found that the bias of the statistician takes precedence in these sorts of cases. While there certainly is a level of attractiveness that people like, have you ever pointed at a skinny girl with a big mole on her nose or something of the like and asked them the same thing, someone who’s shirt just hangs on them in a sickly fashion? My guess is that you are only pointing out attractive skinny girls and you know the answer before you ask it otherwise you wouldn’t ask it. Look at some size 14 girl that is fairly attractive and carries herself with a certain amount of confidence and ask the same people the same question. You’ll be surprised by the results. For me what’s important are Personality (specifically intelligence and confidence) a pretty face, a nice shape (curves) I tend to prefer disproportionately large hips and ass. You really can’t pigeon-hole men like you are doing. You are doing exactly what you complain men are guilty of, and that is typing. I tend to like women who are not skinny but that does not mean I haven’t been with skinny women or do not find them attractive. It’s the particular person and not her type that makes her beautiful.

Erek

190

Perhaps I’ll get flamed for this but whatever. I don’t believe the media is to blame for women’s bad self-image. the only person to blame is oneself (awful grammer, no?) Because only you can choose and allow the media to dictate your worth. Yes they are putting out the message but YOU are internalizing it AND setting as your personal standard.

Let me give you an example. I had an ex-boyfriend who used to tell me that I was fat or could “stand to lose a few pounds.” Does this mean I’m a shitty, unattractive person? NO, it means my ex-boyfriend is an ASSHOLE. If I let him make me feel bad, rather than dumping his sorry ass, I am giving him the power to tell me how to feel about myself. And I give the media less power over me than the most assholish of boyfriends. You have to know that you are a worthy and yes beautiful person. But that knowledge has to come from inside you, not some exterior source. If you don’t believe it, you wont believe anyone who tells you otherwise. But that’s not their fault! Men have a hard row to hoe in this one.

You have to stop giving the media, men on the street, etc the POWER to make you feel bad. I read Cosmo. I read it to laugh at the sex tips. To me, its good for a giggle. If it makes you feel bad you should not only not read it, you should burn it in effigy of all the people who have ever made you feel bad.

191

That’s easy to say, when you are a full-grown woman. I don’t know your background, but it sounds like when you got this sort of crap, you were already mature, had a well-formed sense of worth. So it’s easy for you to say, “Just ignore it! I did!”

But do you really think it’s so easy when you are 11, 12, 13, 14, and ALL you get from all sides are messages that you are ugly? Even people that you love tell you that you really need to change your appearance? That your sole solution to the harrassment you endure is for you to struggle to change your appearance?

As Biggirl said, it’s hard to be an atheist in a house full of Christians. It’s really hard to tell yourself that it’s all a bunch of crap when NO ONE, not even the ones who love you the most, will allow you to believe that you are not the one that needs to change.

192

I don’t know where you’re getting this from, but it’s not true. I have studied Ancient Greek art (I presume your use of the word “was” above means that you are talking about Ancient Greece; I don’t know anything about standards of beauty in modern Greece), and I don’t believe I have ever seen a Greek sculpture or vase painting of a woman who could be described as “very large”.

193

Um, hello, when I was 11,12,13 I was short, disproportionately busty, frizzy red hair, dorko glasses, and a failure at being “cool.” Yes I was ostracized by the thin pretty girls who had been my friends in elementary school. The cool boys hassled me constantly. I wondered what the “secret” was that would make everyone like me again. All on my own I figured out there was no secret & they had the problem, not me. At age 14 I “escaped” (as I thought of it even then) to a specialized high school for smart kids. Believe you me, 11-13 were the worst years of my entire life.

On the other hand, I WAS the kind of smartass 13 year old who would have the following exchange:
Mom: [Friend’s daughter] just signed to the Ford modeling agency, isn’t that nice
Me: <snort> I suppose she’ll be anorexic and strung out on speed before the year’s up then, huh mom?

And, BTW, I’m very sorry you had a difficult family life. Isn’t the OP about women and the Media? Not about families that degrade you and are horribly unsupportive? Do you truly blame the media for how you feel about yourself? At any rate my post was not a critique of you or of 13 year old girls. It was a critique of grown women who allow fashion magazines and Entertainment Tonight to tell them how to feel.

194

How nice for you - only 2 years of Living Hell. Yeah, you may have some small concept… But having some harrassment from age 11-13 doesn’t really compare to having harrassment from ages 11-20+. Sorry, it isn’t the same. For many of us, there was no respite. No relief, ever. Certainly not from the media, which only reinforced that ugly people are less worthy. Certainly not from peers, who buy into it.

I never said my family degraded me and was horribly unsupportive. They just bought into it, like everyone else. They loved me, they never told me I was ugly. But they saw no other solution other than I try to change. My sisters and my mom had the same weight and appearance issues that I had. How could they be helpful, when they suffered the same problems?

I expect the media to help us bring out the best in us, not the worst. I expect them to try to fight stereotypes, rather than reinforce them.

It seems like you had an easier time than many of us, so it all seems simpler to you. You only had a few years of Living Hell, most of us had far more. Believe me - the scars we have take a long time to heal. We may intellectually know that it’s all BS, but the scars are still there, and our basic distrust of humanity is also hard to overcome.

In a nutshell, just because it seems simple to you, doesn’t mean it’s simple for us. We do not share the same experiences, obviously. You may think you understand, but I seriously doubt that.

195

'tis a long thread, and I’ve only read to Page 2; but I can’t stand not putting in my two-cent’s-worth, so here goes.

Television is one of the most brilliant brainwashing tools ever devised. Marketing departments and ad agencies have been onto this fact for decades, and they have developed an impressive expertise at influencing the values, beliefs, and ambitions of viewers. Children are willingly offerred up by many parents to the God of television at a very early age, since it is such a convenient babysitter. Thus, is it any wonder that television has an iron grip on the will of the masses? Be patient. I’m working my way to a point relevant to this thread.

The big driver behind television advertising is marketing by large corporations. I believe that large corporations are controlled, predominantly, by conservative individuals. Conservative individuals tend to want traditional values to persist in society. Traditionally, women have been treated as chattel in western culture. While much progress has been made in the U.S. in terms of expanding the opportunities available to women, we are still a long way from achieving feminsim (“Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes”).

I believe that the conservative media movers want to make lots of money by motivating people to buy their goods. I also believe that these same people want to “keep women in their place”. An excellent approach to this objective is the promotion of appearance as a measure of self-worth in women. Get the little darlings to focus on making themselves pretty, sexy and desirable, and you will dampen their ambition to threaten male-dominated society.

Thus, I believe that the “beauty myth” is being used to undermine the self-image of women as a means of political, as well as economic control.

196

After reading all of the posts on this issue, I figured I have to put my two cents in. First, I should explain that I happen to be tall and skinny. I can just see you rolling eyes at this post now, but hear me out. That is just my body type, and my whole family just happens to be tall and skinny as well, what can I say? I eat normally and only exercize occasionally. I swear not a week goes by that I am not accused of having some type of eating disorder or other problem (I don’t.) Being the size I am and tall as well, its very hard to find clothes that fit. Take it from me…I would KILL (well, not kill but go to great lengths) to be a few sizes bigger and have some curves. Maybe I’m just a minority on this, but I’m serious. I know that all of you you female dopers reading this probebly think this is a bunch of s–t and I can already forsee the backlash of angry posts, but it’s NOT fun being the way I am. Trust me.

197

Kbean - no angry backlash from me.
I have friends in the same situation as you, and they also say the same, that they would like some curves, I’ve offered to trade with them, actually! LOL!

I suppose there is always going to be a matter of grass being greener on the other side for everyone.

I’m curvy, but I want your body style (tall and thin)… whereas it’s vice versa for you.

I have curly hair and constantly have my straight-haired friends tell me how much they’d love to have my hair, where i’ve been trying for years to straighten it.

Maybe that’s part of the allure for men and society in general with models (don’t flame me I’m not saying all men want a supermodel). Supermodels have a body type which represents a very, very small percentage of women, so they are exotic in their looks. Something !NEW! and !EXCITING!, so a man may very well be drawn to the looks of a bone-thin model, but when it comes down to it, they want a Jennifer Lopez in their bed. I suppose it’s like comparing a fine painting to a video game. One is for merely admiring and the other is hands-on interactivity…

More of my .02.

198

I agree. I know I catch myself looking at models or actresses or other women and think “I wish i could look like her…” Alot of people say that “You have to accept you body as it is” which, as the cliche goes, is easier said than done. I think that the media itself, by providing countless images of unattainable beuty, prevents us form accepting our looks because it is providing the “standard” for us to compare to. I personally think that if women could stop comparing (which would be alot easier without the images that the media provide), then we would be alot better off. However, that too is easier said than done.

[QUOTE]
** Maybe that’s part of the allure for men and society in general with models…Supermodels have a body type which represents a very, very small percentage of women, so they are exotic in their looks. Something !NEW! and !EXCITING!, so a man may very well be drawn to the looks of a bone-thin model, but when it comes down to it, they want a Jennifer Lopez in their bed. I suppose it’s like comparing a fine painting to a video game. One is for merely admiring and the other is hands-on interactivity…
**

Exactly. I couldn’t agree more.

199

Everyone posting that the media and TV are out to get them but they can’t turn off the TV.

ooo addiction… the circus of the masses eh…

200

Of course I could turn off my TV and stop going to the movies. That being done, I can’t turn off the billboards, the bus ads, the magazine covers in the supermarket checkout, the web pop-ups, every other place where the image is being pushed on me. Media consists of more than simply television.
I also cannot turn off your TV, or the television sets of others who judge me against the standard they’re also being bombarded with. I can’t stop them from seeing movies, shows, and videos where there is one narrow standard of beauty - nor can I stop those images from reaching their eyes and influencing their decisions.
Might turning off the TV help? Yes, but not all that much.