And my point is that apparently your average man does like women with breast implants, tons of makeup, etc., since that is what the women in media targeted at men look like. Individual men of course may have other preferences, but someone, make that a lot of someones bought all those posters of Pamela Anderson. So what is the message that you want straight women to hear? It’s okay if you’re not thin, but you’d damn well better have enormous breasts and plenty of makeup if you want men to find you attractive? I’m sorry, but I don’t see that as much of an improvement.
Wait, Lamia, I never said that men’s perceptions of women were fair, just that they are different than what women apparently think they are.
Most men like big breasts. Some don’t, most do. And most women with big breasts are big everywhere. And so most men prefer women with curvy figures. Btw, that makeup stuff is IMHO silly. Yes, these women are heavily made-up, but most men don’t really care about that, just like they don’t care what clothes women wear, and besides it’s pretty much all for the cameras.
Which is why all this beauty obsession, and worrying about the right clothes and the right hairstyle and such is just silly if you are doing it for men, because men don’t care. If YOU like it, fine, but don’t blame us men. You can blame men for lots of things, but this isn’t one of them.
Lamia, we want women to “hear” that there is more than one type of beautiful. When we buy a poster of Pam we aren’t sending a message to you, we’re sending a message to Pam. IMO, anyway.
Sorry, dude. They aren’t listening. I don’t think we can get the message that men hold multiple non-exclusive standards for beauty past the din of advertising and self-critical thoughts.
Ah, so the problem is that women are just trying to live up to the wrong unattainable standards of beauty. ::rolleyes:: Actually, I doubt women are as far off as you think. I suspect that most women are aware that many men prefer women with great big breasts to women with small breasts.
Well, other posters have pointed out that it’s not just about men. Most women want their appearance to be pleasing, and it’s not simply because they are looking to attract men. But I do not believe that most men really care so little about how women look. Even you seem willing to admit that there are certain body types that most men find more attractive than other body types. And from my own observation I have seen that women who do take pains to be fashionable and wear “the right clothes and the right hairstyle” have better luck with men than women who do not.
I know many perfectly nice heterosexual women in their early and mid-twenties who have never had a date in their lives. It’s not because they have bad personalities. It’s not because they’re stupid. It’s not because they’re mentally ill or have substance abuse problems. It’s not even because their bodies or facial features are below average. Any of these women would be considered quite desireable in the lesbian community (or at least to me!). As best as I can tell the only reason they don’t get attention from men is that they are “plain” and “mousy” – in other words, they do not have the sort of hair, clothes, and makeup that men find “cute” and “pretty”. I am sure that there are some men who would not be put off by this, but apparently a heck of a lot of men are. Knowing this I certainly haven’t got the heart to criticize them if they end up feeling bad about themselves or think that their life would be better if they were more attractive.
This differs with what I have observed. I don’t question for a second that you know many women who have not had dates and who are plain. However, I do not believe that the reason is that a heck of a lot of men are put off by them. Why do I say this? Because there are a great many plain (I really don’t like that term) women who do date. In fact, I suggest that not only do most women not meet the unattainable standard, but that few come anywhere near it. That is the at the centre of the insidious nature of the unattainable standard. But most of these women still date. If some are not dating but wish they were, I suggest that it is not due to men being put off by their looks.
Look instead to how these women project themselves. If they project self esteem, they will be more attractive. If they do not, then they will not be as attractive. Do they have the social skills to begin and carry a conversation, or are they wall flowers in social settings among new people? Do they have a wide variety of interests and activities which keep them out in the community on a regular basis interacting with new people and then having the opportunity to meet with these people regular occasions so that they can get to know each other? If they have the social skill set and the time to get out and get involved in a variety of activities, then odds are they will have little difficulty in dating.
My concern is how society does not encourage young women to build strong social skill sets, or to put it better, often the social skill sets which both young women and men are encouraged to build are ineffective and at times inappropriate. In particular, young women are often raised to be passive and re-active rather than active. Instead of learning to go out and get involved, they often learn to sit and wait. And thus some find themselves waiting long into their lives. Body image pays a damaging part in this, for when developing a social skill set, a poor self image may be the straw that breaks the camels back.
At the same time, young men are also conditioned to objectify women’s bodies, just a young women are. Some men never grow beyond this, and spend their lives as shallow people. Others are so concerned about what is expected of them as suitors that they never enter the social pool, and instead do not date because of their lack of social skills. Most, however, mature to the point that they develop their own tastes and interests, and are no longer compelled to seek out Barbie Dolls for companionship. Just look around at women with whom men date and maintain long terms relationships: perfectly wonderful women – not boob jobs or scarecrows or plasticized cuts of meat. The problem is that during the time when young men are maturing, particularly through their teens, they start out with a very immature view of women and relationships, including an emphasis on body image. They act and think as packs, rather than individuals, and this group-think is heavily influenced by societal norms, particularly through the media. Add to this young women who also buy into the false body image ideal, and you have a lot of confused, lonely people of both genders. Sadly, by the time some young men are mature enough to be let loose in public, some young women are already out of the social pool, perhaps never to return, if they had ever entered it in the first place. If one were to wave a magic wand and make them into Barbie Dolls once they were in the workforce, they still would be out of social circulation and consequently still would have difficult meeting men attractive to them.
And as to the plain hetro women you know who are not dating but wish to? Ask them how often they ask men out on dates? I think their answers might be quite telling.
I largely agree with your post, Muffin, but I think I may not have been clear when I described these women as “plain” and “mousy” as opposed to “cute” and “pretty”. I was not refering to their bodies or faces, but rather to their hair, clothing, and makeup.
Women who read beauty magazines generally do so because they wish to keep up with trends in hair, clothing, and makeup styles. They wish to appear fashionable and attractive. There are many reasons why a woman might wish to maintain a fashionable and attractive appearance, and not every woman has the same reasons, but one popular reason is the desire to appeal to men.
While I can easily believe that men do not care whether open-toed pumps are in this season, I think that they do respond more favorably to women who put some effort into maintaining a fashionable and attractive appearance. It may not be necessary to stay on the cutting edge of every trend, but a woman in stylish clothes with “natual-looking” makeup is more likely to attract men than her identical twin sister who shops at Aunt Priscilla’s House of Librarian Fashions and wears no makeup at all. This is not to say that the “plain” twin is doomed to spinsterhood, but she is unlikely to be as popular with the gentlemen as her more fashionable sister.
Men may not demand the unattainable standard of beauty, but I think they do expect attainable beauty – that is, they usually prefer women who have made some effort to improve or enchance their natural appearance to those who don’t bother. In light of this I think it’s unfair to criticize women (as some in this thread have done) who read beauty magazines and try to stay fashionable.
True for many. But I’m not deaf. Please shower me with praise.
Just to clarify, I don’t think that the men are getting a fair shake here. Keep doing what you are doing, just understand that your women friends are not being willfull or stubborn or that they are fishing for compliments. And I also agree that the proper response to a compliment received with disbelief is “don’t call me a liar.”
A better understanding by all parties is called for. We can all only do what we can do.
I hope the men here don’t feel like they’ve been bashed. I certainly didn’t intend that. I don’t lay this problem at the feet of my IRL male friends or lovers, either.
I think most of us realize that the little voice that recounts our failings is inside our heads - comprised of a little bit Mom, a little bit media, a little bit us, a little bit ex-BF. Impossible to sort out, and the loop is endless. It’s the psychological equivalent of the “Small World” song at Disneyland. You know it’s evil, but it just won’t STOP!
There aren’t a lot of IRL opportunities to bitch about the Evil Little Voice[sup]TM[/sup] (at least not appropriate ones), so I’m sure that I, at least, sounded more vehement and more pitiful than I actually am. And just to make sure you don’t feel any pity for me at all, send me any skinny little fashion model ya got. I’ll pound her into the ground like a railroad spike.
Consider yourself showered. A few women have posted here shining examples of how I think women everywhere should act: “Damn your corporate images, I’m beautiful”. BigGirl and Corrvin come to mind immediately, but If I’ve failed to notice others of you, don’t assume it’s because I don’t care, it’s just that I’m a man, and have a limited attention span… 
By Jove, I think he’s got it!
<<A few women have posted here shining examples of how I think women everywhere should act: “Damn your corporate images, I’m beautiful”. >>
Screw that. I’m not interested in being beautiful.
Tell me I’m clean, well-dressed, smell good, reasonably presentable, and great in bed. Oh, and brilliant. Put that first.
Corr (who thinks beautiful and sexy are different, would prefer being sexy, and is working quite hard on it)
You know, there is another culprit here besides the media. Life breeds insecurity in many forms. Sometimes other people are mean. Sometimes traffic is bad. Sometimes scary things happen. I’m talking here about external insecurity–the kind that has many people nostalgic for some nonexistant 50s ideal. In some people it manifests itself as political conservatism. In others, a withdrawal from unfamiliar things. In many women in particular it fosters a need for control over one’s body.
Being thin and working out are often attempts not to measure up to some ridiculous ideal but attempts to attain control over something that is very difficult to control but can be mastered. As a society, we idolize control. We scorn the overweight as gluttons–people who cannot control their appetites. In its extreme form, it’s anorexia and bulimia.
There’s a psychological boost that a person may get from working out that is not entirely endorphin related. There is also a psychological boost one can get from fasting. In moderation, it’s a religious practice. Do it too much and you permanently screw up your brain and metabolism. Still, it can be very appealing.
What’s really frightening is that apparently, the web is host to several proanorexia websites, (see http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,169660,00.html) which talk about this disease as a “lifestyle” choice. One woman who had been in recovery and went back to being anorexic talked about how great it felt being so “clean.” That might freak some people out, but many of us can probably relate.
I, for one, can remember being in high school, on the gymnastics team, and being so proud of myself if I managed to eat no more than one-fifth of a Snickers[sub]TM[/sub] bar all day. I was proud of myself when I could distract my parents from the questions about whether I had had dinner that day. It meant I was in control of my world. I felt light–metaphysically (probably because I was dizzy due to a chronic lack of blood sugar] and hyper-sensitive to the world. Plus, I was superior because I dictated my involvement with the baser parts of human existence.
Anyway, my point is that it’s not just the media that causes this. There’s a lot more to it including the kinds of things we value and the kinds of character traits we think are worthwhile.
I suffered from bulemia when I was younger, and I think your description is very accurate. I was a ballet student between the ages of 5 and 22; in that world, control and extreme low weight are highly prized. Very few people are able to achieve the level of control required of a professional dancer; for those who cannot, there is humiliation and public ridicule. Imagine being at a group weigh-in, and being pointed out as too fat - when you are 5’9" and weigh 103. How can I ever live up to the standard I was taught as a child? And how can I ever feel in control?
Wow, **seawitch[/], what an effective way for shame to have been drilled into your head. It’s amazing that you don’t continue to have an ED now. That kind of up-close-and-personal riducule is much more damaging than the constant exposure to unrealistic media images. Of course, the media saturation certainly reinforces the idea that you can never be too thin.
You know, I was thinking overnight about how to say something I was trying to get at in terms of how we form our self-image that I wasn’t able to say very well.
I think what I was trying to say were a couple of things–1. it’s not necessarily about our body sizes except to the extent that body size is an effect of our actions; and 2. There are more fundamental things at work.
First, I really think that as a culture we still harbor certain extremist Puritanical views. I know it’s counter-intuitive, especially since most of us were never Puritans, but there’s something about US culture that still harbors this streak. We idolize restraint and control over all things natural. Self-discipline and denial are valued. This is sort of the color of our lenses as we view the world. So, others who are heavier often seem to lack control (bad). Those who are thin seem to have control (good). It’s like the difference between the lawn that’s been left to nature and the finely manicured Japanese garden. (or between the hairy female body and the shaven one, but that’s a different thread).
I think these things affect both men and women, it’s just that women internalize more. I have no idea whether it’s natural or learned behavior. The fact remains that women internalize more than men. In seawitch’s example, a boy in her position might not take the lesson that he was inferior. Instead, he might think there was something really wrong with the instructor and other students. Alternatively, he might think that’s just the way he is and ballet is not for him. He would look for a way out so that the problem is not his fault. This is not a criticism of the male psyche (or the female psyche for that matter), it’s just a difference.
So, to sum up. I think that women’s low self image comes from our cultural values which are certainly reinforced by the media. I also think that body image is just a symptom of a deeper insecurity.
well, i’m not going to get into what i look like, because it’s not relevant.
but i will say that i would prefer to have certain areas smaller, or more muscly, or defined, or whatever.
now, i know i’m relatively sexy, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, after all.
and i have little trouble picking up guys…who all lavish me with compliments…which i don’t believe.
but the comments that really stuck with me were from my (gorgeous) girl-friend, who told me that if she could, she’d rather have my body than hers; and from my (male)friend who looked at me after i’d lost weight and asked me how long i’d had 'flu for.
the only reasons that i picked up on these was because they had no reason to lie to make me feel better, and i trust their judgement.
and for the guys out there, the most attractive and sexy guy i’ve been with this year would qualify as “chunky” and out of shape in most people’s books. he’s gorgeous. by anyone’s standard.
Are you serious? You must have tiny bones…I’m average boned, 5’8", and I’d be hospitalized if I weighed 103. That’s ludicrous.
stoid
I do have tiny bones. And I did look like I needed both a Snickers bar and a doctor. And yes, it is ludicrous - but ballet is a very different subculture. And, I realize, it has nothing to do with the media or the topic at hand. Sorry for the hijack.
Not a hijack at all…
I think when we discuss this we have to realize that there are a lot of factors. Sure, the media and their Special K “pinch an inch” commercials are bad, but so are weigh ins for dancers and gymnasts. I think I mentioned that my mother had a “talk” with the gymnastics coach when my sister was weighed in and told to loose a couple pounds (she was by no means overweight).
Yes, absolutely. Most entertainment tends to model itself on reality though. Overly idealized images are presented as though they are “normal.” This is potentially very damaging to people’s self-image.
Consider the plot summary of “Bridget Jones’s Diary” taken verbatim from the Internet Movie Database:
Hmmmm… Who will we cast as this character?
Renee Zellweger?
If she’s “average”, then necessarily most women are somewhere “below average.” This is not an isolated example. A shopping mall in Vancouver has been running a campaign for a few years that features print ads of two panels: The first panel invariably shows a drop-dead gorgeous model, beautifully dressed, with the caption “Ordinary.” The second panel is the same model, with a few more accessories and some gaudy make-up, captioned “Extraordinary.”
There’s nothing wrong with showcasing beautiful people, but balancing it with a little bit of reality would be nice.