Oy.
Guys, thank you for answering my questions. It seems that you are bewildered by the way women feel about this issue, and it’s garnering reactions from confusion to frustration to pity to anger at women[sup]1[/sup] for not being able to just laugh it off.
Over and over there is the phrase “men like…” “But men like…” “But men are attracted to…” It’s GREAT to be reminded of this, it brings some persepective back into it, but it’s not important. We don’t need your protestations that you don’t really find those models attractive. How do you know we aren’t all lesbians?
For women who feel this way, it’s not about the actual perceptions of men, women, or anyone outside their own heads. The negative cultural messages they’ve received from an early age become internalized. It’s all about how they see themselves.
Biggirl’s post was amazing (and she’s right, I do have a great ass). She has come to accept and enjoy herself AGAINST THE TIDE OF WHAT EVERYONE AND EVERYTHING IN THE CULTURE HAS TOLD HER. More women need to do what she’s done. I’m about 2/3 of the way there.
The women in this thread who have talked about their own experiences are intelligent, rational, good-looking beings. They know rationally that it’s stupid to hold themselves to these ridiculous standards. If emotional response were a rational thing, then problem solved. It takes a large effort, sustained over time to ignore this stuff. Some of you have said “I understand that it’s hard for young girls but grown women should know better.” Well, duh, where do you think they learned to feel this way? When they were kids.
For purposes of this debate, how productive is it to argue with what individual posters are feeling about themselves? “You feel bad about yourself, you are stupid for feeling bad about yourself, I looked at your picture and you are pretty and if you don’t think so then go ahead, call me a liar” stuff is not helpful. You can’t change a person’s self-perception through a message board posting, and it’s irritating and more than a bit patronizing to suggest that you can.
Is it possible to accept that in our culture, men and women are still “valued” differently? And that we are subjected to different cultural messages about who we should be? And that we react to them differently? The fact that you (global you) don’t understand how I (global I) feel doesn’t mean that I don’t still feel it.
If anyone is still wading through this, I’d be interested to hear from posters who live outside North America to see if it’s the same. There is a very positive ideal in American culture that through hard work and persistence you can transform yourself into anything you want to be - we are a nation of rags-to-riches and frog-to-prince stories, just ask Jared, who ate nothing but Subway sandwiches for months on end.
I think this ideal has been perverted by advertisers in a way that damages people (men AND women) over time. It comes in the form of pressure to be perfect, to crack the code of success, because everyone around you is doing it and you don’t want to miss the train. For men, I think the pressure is more on financial and career achievement and athletics. For women, it’s looks. And financial and career achievement. And housekeeping. And raising perfect children.
And somehow, the “looks” thing just hits us where we live. No matter what we achieve in life, we carry this face and this body with us because it is on some level who we are. It’s “the face we present to the world.” “You never get a second chance to make a first impression.”
I’ll never forget the day in 9th grade that I first wore my new contact lenses to school. A teacher remarked in front of the whole class that I looked better with glasses. “This” I said through clenched teeth, “is my goddamned face.” So after 10 years of “Four-eyes, four-eyes” taunts I learned that my face is ugly with our without glasses. I don’t walk around feeling that way anymore - I like my face, and I LOVE my glasses. I can honestly say that I was one of the smartest people in my class, that I’ve always been funny and more or less kind to other people. But I was somehow less because of my appearance.
So where did those kids learn that glasses were ugly? Where do people learn that they can make comments on your appearance? Why do entertainment newspapers feel that they can cover weight losses and gains and plastic surgeries as if it’s their or our business?
I would say the path to fighting the cultural barrage would look something like this: Look at ads critically, and don’t buy products of companies whose ads make you feel bad. Look at TV stars and movie stars as what they are: extremely attractive people who spend 100% of their time maintaining and being judged by how they look. Realize that THEY never feel 100% okay with how they look, either. Give compliments, and accept them with a smile. Don’t criticize the appearance of others, and intervene if you hear someone doing so, especially young kids. If someone criticizes your appearance, smile and say “I’m sorry that you feel that way” and pity them for the self-loathing insecure person they are. When you see people who don’t fit the cultural mold, fight the part of yourself that tries to fit them into it. Don’t get caught up in the celebrity-driven fashion and beauty stories, tips, style secrets. Do things to make your body feel good - eat good good, have lots of sex, take long baths and long walks. Dress in clothes that fit and feel good.
It’s MUCH easier said than done, so recognize that. I really admire Biggirl and Corvina for setting good examples. The last thing women need is another list of “handy tips” to follow or another reason to beat themselves up.
I know this post is long, I think it might be my last in the thread unless anyone has a specific question for me - I’m still reading.
[sub] 1 BlackKnight, don’t “stop yourself from becoming a misogynist” on our account, really.[/sub]
Why am I reminded of 9[sup]1[/sup]/[sub]2[/sub] Weeks?
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for the next hour or two.