Some Women's Low Self-Image and the Media

Great Debates
121

Is this getting out of control or what?

Yes, I love when my husband is honest about my appearance, and I reward that honesty with biscuits. :smiley:

But I do know there are times when I don’t look my best and he tells me I do anyway “so I’ll feel better”. ICKY. That’s a case of Mr. Fixit I think.

“Jarbaby’s in a bad mood, better tell her she’s pretty, even though she’s got a big zit on her chin and she’s wearing a ratty old bears jersey to bed.”

I don’t like that. And really, the point I was trying to make way back on page ONE is that your friends and family are (it seems) socially REQUIRED to enjoy your appearance, where as strangers are not. Bears game guy can be honest because we’re strangers. Husband/Mom/Sister/Dog feel they cannot be honest because they’ve got to deal with me on a daily basis, therefore I am placated. I would like that to end.

And that’s where Magdalene’s last post comes in. All the men on this thread are offering up “we love you how you are, everyone is beautiful, everyone is wonderful” without ever having seen us or even knowing us. So how am I supposed to take any compliment you give at face value, when I know you’re willing to throw them around so freely?
jarbaby

122

It takes an awful lot more than a chin zit and bad clothes to make a beautiful woman ugly. So if your husband is anything like me, he might just mean what he says.

123

Societially speaking, teaching critical thinking is a great start. Not only might it help us overcome this issue, maybe we can get the populace at large thinking about politics, science, claims on the wonders of aromatherapy.

Offering positive reinforcement to media images of positive, alternately shaped women is also good. Write, make a phone call, let people know you pay attention.

We could ask congress to remove adds for weight loss products (like slimfast) from television on the logic that they harm young kids - the same logic we’ve used to remove cigarette advertising. Not a fan of this idea myself, but its a debatable idea.

High school coaches (like my sisters) who weigh in young girls should be reprimanded. High school girls should weigh whatever their bodies want to without any help from authority figures.

On a personal note, reminding each other that we are beautiful is helpful. A guy says “you look great in that sweater” and we hear (note the use of the word HEAR), “I want to get in your pants.” A woman says the same thing and we think “Gee, I must look pretty darn good in this sweater.” (Yeah, I know guys, this is unfair. You should be able to give a compliment without looking like a sleazy operator. Sometimes, you can’t win.)

124

Yes. In the sense that too many women feel insecure about themselves needlessly.

Yes, I am. This isn’t supposed to be, I suppose, a standard male complex to have, but I have it. I compare myself to images of well-sculpted, muscular, classically handsome men in the media and find myself lacking. Having said that, I don’t think I suffer for it nearly as badly as women do, because men can “get away” with a greater range of “imperfection.”

I think women that I know personally – whom I think are attractive and to whom I have made this opinion plain ---- appreciate this, and find it helpful to their self-images… but it doesn’t really change whatever core feelings they may have about it. They may think, “Oh, well, he thinks I’m attractive. That’s really nice, that makes me feel good… but I still hate my thighs.” And in the end, it’s really about how a person judges his or herself, not about external opinions.

I have known beautiful women who demurred when given that compliment. I don’t know if that means they thought they were ugly. It may mean simply that most men or women tend to take praise about their appearance with a grain of salt; very few of us look as good to themselves, I think, as they do to other people.

Frustrate? No. I’m used to it and I no longer let it bother me. If it is someone I’m close to, I’ll simply indicate, *well, you can feel however you feel about it… but I think you’re gorgeous, so do with that what you will. *

Yes. How can anyone argue differently? It seems almost intuitively obvious,

No. Quite frankly, I think we’re all screwed, and I’m not kidding. We’re locked into a consumer-driven society, and as time goes on it will get worse, not better. I don’t have a lot of hope for reversing any of the more disturbing trends of the 20th and 21st Centuries.

125

*Originally posted by Tranquilis *

OK, I get that now. Actually, that’s the first time it’s been said in way that I could get the distinction. So, what can men do to help? Can we do anything to help?

[/QUOTE]

Thanks for asking. :slight_smile:

This is something I’ve been thinking about a lot lately, and it relates to quite a number of different threads on the boards right now.

I am a larger-than-average woman. After many, many years of being thoroughly disgusted with myself, and many, many failed attempts to become an average-sized woman, I finally have learned to see myself for who I am – a beautiful woman. When I wake up in the morning and look at myself in the mirror, I feel good. I like to shop for clothing, and I purchase whatever fits and looks good on me without regard to size. I do wear jewelry, because it makes me happy. I don’t wear makeup, because it doesn’t particularly interest me. In other words, my self-esteem with regard to my body image is high.

However, that doesn’t mean that seeing women being judged on the basis of their weight/appearance doesn’t upset me. It upsets me because it feeds a vicious cycle, in which both men and women judge women on that basis. Men start to feel that there’s something wrong with being with a larger women. Parents start to feel that their children are somehow inferior because of their size (believe me, I know this one from sad personal experience). Women spend millions of dollars trying to fit themselves into some perfect mold because they are being told that whatever inadequacies they suffer are directly related to their appearance.

I think that that is the ultimate lie – that “everything will be better” if you’re just thinner, or have bigger breasts, or a smaller butt. That isn’t the answer – and Kunimitsu I’d like to address this point specifically to you – no matter how good you look, no matter how “cut” you are, that insecurity is not going to go away. It’s the feeling of inadequacy inside you that drives you to think “if I only looked like “x” (whether “x” is a media personality or a personal friend)” I’ll be happy, satisfied with my life, fulfilled, whatever. And I do think that the media plays a big role in making appearance be the first place we look for fulfillment.

People have always done soul-searching. But if you look at history, while you certainly find assessments of beauty and homeliness, you don’t find a lot of people actively trying to change their appearance in order to improve themselves. People used to improve themselves by increasing their knowledge, their economic status, and their social lives. The media has taught us, and continues to teach us, that the best and quickest way to improve ourselves is by improving our appearance, and that once we do that, everything else will just magically fall into place.

So what’s the solution? If you are an advertiser with direct control over pitches, try to avoid the ones that imply that appearance counts for more than it does – that you’ll have a perfect, happy life if you just use some particular diet or beauty product. If you’re in the position to create some form of entertainment, try to treat people of varying appearances as equals in all things except appearance. Most importantly, in your daily life, as you deal with people, don’t judge them by appearance, except as a standard of what they look like. Yes, you can date the ones that appeal to you. But don’t assume that the ones who don’t have the “right” ass or the “right” breasts are less or more intelligent, less or more athletic, less or more interested in cooking, or Tai Chi, or vacationing in Hawaii, or the General Theory of Relativity than anyone else.

Don’t insult people by telling them, through your words or actions, that they are somehow less worthy because of their appearance.

Tranquilis, I wish I could give you some magic words to say that would work in every situation and make every woman feel good about herself. Unfortunately they don’t exist. But if you always keep in mind that appearance is just appearance, and make it clear to the women in your life that they are a joy to you because of who they are, and not because of how they look, then you’ll be on the right track. And the more the media and the rest of the world take the same approach, the better off we’ll all be.

126

This is gonna take awhile…

Frankly, yes. The majority of women I know need make little or no change in their appearance. While physical looks that match one of my prefered types would be nice, it’s not even close to being neccessary. Be yourself, and I’ll like you just fine. Try too hard, and I’ll be seriously turned-off.

Sometimes. I carry more weight than I like, in fact more than is strictly healthy. Other than that, no. It’s not a daily concern, and I certainly don’t need to ask anyone their opinion about it. I know what I weigh, and know what I ought to weigh for my best health. It’s actually very objective.

Hell no, but I’d like it if they’d make room (even if only a little) in their self image for positive commentary.

Absolutely. It pisses me off when a woman I’ve just complimented essentially calls me a liar, simply because her mind is too narrow to accept that her self image has nothing to do with my opinion of her looks.

As above, it pisses me off. If you ask my opinion, then do me the courtsey of not immediately discounting the opinion you just asked for. It’s disrespectful, and tells me that my opinion doesn’t count. Thanks so very much for telling me where I count in your world…

Absolutely.

I like the idea previously posted about formal “advertisement deconstruction” education. Boycotts would be effective, but are hard to organize.

Apparently, the Ad-men have found and effectively exploited a nastly little chink in the armor of the female soul. It’s not the only part of the problem, but it’s certainly a big part of it.

127

I have alwasy hated my body type.
I am right now, 5’10" and 120 lbs.
The waif look was not popular when I was growing up.
It was mainly a big busted ideal.
I really never look at the models in the ads.
I look at the clothes, and wonder if I’d like them, but I’ve seen nice clothes on so-called Plus-size models (read: normal women)which I would like.

128

[li]Do you think too many women have problems with how they look?[/li]~If you mean do I have a problem with how women think that they look, no. I suppose that’s ultimately their business, so long as I am not expected to agree or disagree with their opinion. If you mean, when I see women in public do I have a problem with the way they look, then sorta. I think they try to hard, and it makes me think they are superficial. That is my primary cause of being single; I see superficiality everywhere, and I just don’t even bother trying.

[li]Are you insecure about your looks? If so, why? If not, why not?[/li]~Not really. I have no idea why. There is evidence that people besides me like the way I look, so I stick with that, I guess. I guess I should say I don’t really think about my appearance at all, except for the occassional haircut and my every-other-day shave.

[li]Do you think women’s perceptions of themselves are based on the reality of how you perceive them? Do you know women that you think are beautiful that think they themselves are ugly?[/li]Sometimes, and yes. The first one is very complicated. The girls I’ve known (women, females, sheesh!) have generally had very similar tastes to my own, so usually we happen to agree on beauty. But, well, I’ve had a few girlfriends who felt unattractive in general no matter what I said, no matter how honest. So, I don’t think that my opinions are discounted, but they don’t seem to be a contributing factor.

[li]Does it frustrate you when you give women compliments and they don’t seem to believe you? That you have to spend time “convincing” them?[/li]~Yes, but I quickly then stop trying. It isn’t my job, IMO, to make a woman feel beautiful. If I think she is, I say so, and there isn’t much more I can do. Really, once I’ve made up my mind about a woman one way or the other I stop thinking so much about it. Fact is, I can’t compete with the voice in her head, the magazines she reads, the singers she emulates, the artists or scientists she emulates, etc etc. So, no, I’m deliberately not convincing because once that path is started by her, its a no-win situation for me. I usually resort to, “I have nothing to say because if I tell you the truth ou won’t believe me and if I lie you will; you’ve made up your mind already, don’t ask me my opinion if you’re only going to discount it.”

[li]Do you think the way women are portrayed in the media contributes to the self-image problems of women and especially young girls?[/li]~Not specifically, no for regular women, for young girls it is very possible. For of-age women, IMO, it becomes a matter of tunnel vision; for younger girls, they aren’t offered anything but the tunnel sometimes. I mean, if Albert Einstein rose from the dead and scientifically proved God exists, I’d still want to see the proof. Even though I know calculus is a huge, well-developed field of math, that didn’t make me any less sceptical about certain theorems I was told to accept without proof. I proved them myself. If the media says “THIS is beautiful,” I’d want them to explain to me the thousands of happily married and otherwise-together people truthfully calling each other beautiful when they are obviously not members of the “TV people.” Failing that explanation, here I am.

[li]If yes, do you have ideas for how to counterract this?[/li]~Honesty. I see no other way.

129

Playboy is probably a bad example. That’s more of a “high-end” magazine, quite respectable even. Hell, I know WOMEN who subscribe. You can’t say that about, say, Swank.

But here’s the funny part: I hear that the fastest-growing and highest-demand segment of the porn industry is “amateur”. I believe the reason for this is that the women are 1. pretty, but attainable, the kind of girls we see every day, and 2. not plastic-looking. I swear, I don’t know what some of the women in porn are thinking, but having unnatural, aggressive, hyper-taut überboobs and collagen-injected lips you could use as a flotation device is just scary.

Lessons to be learned: men like REAL women, and Pamela Anderson Lee Whatever Her Name Is Now looked better before she had all that surgery.

130

Yes (I feel I should expound more but ‘yes’ seems to cover this one).

Nope…not at all. For the most part I think I’m a decent looking guy. I’m not GQ handsome or anything. Frankly, ‘average’ (or some other middle of the road term) probably describes my looks best. At 34 my hair is starting to thin a bit. Not much but a harbinger of things to come. I am also sporting a few gray hairs and am about 10 pounds overweight. I’d like to drop the weight a bit but not for looks but rather for health (my stamina isn’t what it used to be).

Why am I not insecure about my looks? I dunno. I do care about how I look insofar as decent grooming and a passable wardrobe goes but beyond that I don’t care. I’m not a fashion hawk but neither do I expect a visit from the fashion police. I can’t remember the last time I weighed myself and I almost never watch what I eat (although I think I need to pay better attention to that as well but mostly to avoid future health issues).

I know I won’t ever make women weak in the knees ala Brad Pitt or some hunk but I don’t really care. I had my share of girlfriends growing up. I got my share of sex. I know I always wished for more but in hindsight I did ok and can’t really complain. Now I’m married to a beautiful wife. All of this without caring overly much about how I looked…why bother developing another issue to face?

No and yes (respectively).

What I really don’t understand here is why (some) women are like this? To all of the women reading this who have a S.O. just reverse the situation to see the truth in this (for the sake of argument I’ll assume you love your S.O. very much)!

If your SO gets a zit do you think he is still handsome?

If your SO has aged like most people and put on a few pounds/lost hair/getting wrinkly do you think he is still handsome?

If he is dressed in cutoffs and a t-shirt is he still handsome?

If you love your SO the answers are probably yes, yes and yes. Sure he looks better without a zit. Sure he probably looked better when he was younger and sure, he probably looks better all dressed up than schlepping around. BUT HE IS STILL HANDSOME IN YOUR EYES!

Why do you suppose it is any different when we tell you you look beautiful even if you just woke up? Yes, you look better after showering but you are beautiful to us either way. Personally one of the things that drove home the notion I was going to marry my wife was seeing a what I felt was a genuinely beautiful person waking up next to me. If she looked that good at her worst I knew I was hooked!

Yes, absolutely. What I just wrote above I think explains this.

Yes as I stipulated in the OP. However, I go back to the chicken and egg thing again. How much is it an evil media empire thrusting these images at women and how much of it is prompted by the women themselves. I think women are both victims and perpetrators of this crime.

My suggestions for this are given in a previous post further up this page. I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on this.

131

What Maeglin said. Precisely.

Mrs. Tranq sometimes breaks out. Yeah? So what. Zits are temporary, and she’s still beautiful. Sometimes she wears that ugly-ass shirt. OK, the shirt’s as ugly as a rat’s ass on a skewer, but ugly clothes come off, and she’s still my lovely woman.

And jarbaby, how can I tell you’re pretty? Simple, actually, you already told me everything I need to know about your looks: Construction workers whistle at you. I know these guys. If you’re getting whistles from them, I don’t need to know any more: You’re pretty by definition.

132

Acco40 - when I post to a thread about self-image, what I am interested in is how I feel about me. Any pity from you was neither necessary nor solicited. Since you have elected to withhold said pity, kindly withhold any further “insights”. They are likely to be equally off target.

133

Exactly. I specified CHEAP porn! Playboy models don’t even look like themselves. I mean you take whatsername, Jenny McCarthy, y’know the one from MTV? Look at her on MTV or on video somewhere. Sure, she looks damn good. Now check out how she “looks” in Playboy. She doesn’t even look like herself! My prediction is that in the future Playboy is going to skip the photography and generate the pictures directly from Photoshop, since half of it is done there already.

But women in cheap porn look like themselves, albeit with breast implants, tons of makeup, and ludicrous outfits. My point is that your average man doesn’t like prepubescent boys, or women who look like prepubescent boys.

Oh, and Jarbabyj? Do you think most men would think [insert beautiful woman here] would be ugly if she had a zit on her chin and was wearing old clothes? Let me give you a news flash, most men don’t even notice what women wear! We hardly pay attention. The only thing we notice is if your new blouse shows cleavage or not. Either it does or it doesn’t, all other attributes are unimportant. And if a man actually looks up past your collarbones to notice your chin you should count yourself lucky.

134

With one hand you giveth, with one hand you taketh away…

Thanks for the thoughtful answers, guys - I will get to them this weekend.

135

Believe me better looks equate to a much more rewarding and easier lifestyle. I think I will be secure with myself if I can acquire the things I want in the appearance aspect.

I don’t see how I can’t because I am secure with just about everything about it’s just that appearance brings me down the drain. Like I could improve on intelligence, I desire to improve with that fraction of me which are looks.

I’m not overwhelming ugly, but I do have flaws that I like to fix. And this can be accomplished, and I KNOW it’ll bring happiness, I know for a fact it will.

136

I have struggled in life not to become a raving misogynist. When I see a thread like this, part of me wants to yell out, “Get over yourselves! Sheesh, how vain and self-absorbed can you get?” The other part of me wants to slap that part and kick him in the shins. :slight_smile:

I’ve been called naive for saying this before, but I seriously think that the younger generations are more skeptical of advertisment than many in the older generations. I’m not saying they’re immune, but I think some resistence is evolving.

A class where students could dissect advertisements would be a great addition to a grade-school curriculum. In fact, I had such a class - D.A.R.E. (Drug Abuse Resistence Education). It was limited in scope (only addressed alcohol ads), and wasn’t very well done, but I think something like it could be beneficial.

And that’s all I have to say about that.

137

Since this is GD, I feel like saying, “Got a cite for that?”

I can only say that this is precisely the attitude that I believe the media are trying to instill in women on a daily basis, and that I do not believe that it has any merit. Of course it doesn’t have any merit for men either.

I hope you achieve that ideal appearance you are searching for and that it gives you all the rewards you desire. But I’ve seen way too many people spend their entire lives in a futile search for the look that will make everything O.K. and make them feel good about themselves, and way too many others who crashed and burned when they achieved what the advertisements told them to and found that life was still tough all over.

If you do reach the magical “look”, please come back and tell us about all the fabulous prizes.

138

I’m going to try to be as honest as possible.
I’m a big girl. In fact I am the opposite of any measure of what is defined as beautiful in the culture in which I live.

There are two different worlds that I live in. In one world (the world that counts) I am me. My strengths and weaknesses are not defined by how I look. In this world I am a goddess. I’m smart, kind, have a great personality and live my life according to what I believe it is to be a good person.
Then there is the other world. The world in which how I look is an indication of what type of person I am. I have gotten into heated arguements right here on this messageboard about how what I look like can and should be an indication of what I am. This can be very helpful in choosing who should be included in the world that counts to me. If my physical attractiveness gives you any indication of my worth as a human being, than I don’t need you in my real world.

This is the world in which I can and have been taunted by perfect strangers. This is the world in which someone who has never met me has deduced that I am lazy and unmotivated because I have described myself as clinically obese. This is the world in which I try not to put too much stock in.

I know I am an exceptional person. This is not bragging. I struggle to be as honest as possible in all situations. Many people would consider me ugly. Many people think that I am a wonderful and beautiful person. What makes me exceptional is that I choose to believe those who tell me I’m beautiful and wonderful. Hell, I think I’m beautiful and wonderful and, coming from such an exceptional person as myself, it must be true.

Most women find that last sentence impossible to say, much less believe. This is what makes me exceptional. Women get torn down every time they open a magazine and turn on the T.V., of course the find it hard to believe a man who tells them they are beautifil just the way they are.

P.S., it was mention already that this is not the thread to start flirting in. As a shout-out to all you guys (and gals) who may run into mags outside of this forum, let me tell you: she’s got a great ass.

139

From as far back as I can remember, my grandmother told me that, “A lady is nothing, if she is not beautiful, and a lady will take all pains to be beautiful.” It was often illustrated that the pains were literal. I was praised for sitting under a hot hair dryer and punished if I squirmed while my hair was being brushed or styled. She showed me no sympathy for any pain or discomfort involved in trying to appear beautiful or ladylike. She also let me know in a steady stream of criticism the many failings my appearance had and would always have. I accompanied her to TOPS meetings where the women reinforced the notion that fat is evil and ugly.

The media reflects many of these same values and is as relentless as my grandmother in reinforcing them. General media is not nearly as bad as that which is marketed directly to women. I think that much of this is due to advertisers. It is very profitable to convince someone that they have problems that can only be solved with the help of a product you sell. The content of media marketed to women nearly invariably focuses on how women are flawed and how they can fix themselves by buying into some image and buying products to attain that image themselves. Appeals can be not only to an aesthetic ideal but also to other kinds of ideals, specifically health and morality.

I think the most odious thing done by media is to encourage us to citicize others for their own good. This behavior helps ensure the images and values will be internalized. Media trains us to be rude to others and help make them feel bad about themselves, and it teaches us that we are doing the right thing by doing so. We aren’t.

140

<<And here is why we don’t believe you when you say you don’t care…name those magic measurements and Corrvin gets flirted with. Yeah, you might appreciate (or be willing to sleep with, or even marry) someone who is 34-38-42, but the positive feedback (and wolf whistles) go to the perfect bod.>>

:::laughs, cries, wheezes, spits Coke out nose:::

Most of that is ribcage. I’m actually not very…projective out front. I also have a rather plain face. I look like a librarian waiting to happen. I’m sure that if people ran around naked all the time, I’d be further up the good-looking scale…from the reactions I get, I’d say I’m somewhere in the midrange, 3-6 on a 10. I might be cuter and not know it; I think I’m dateless because men in my locale are terrified of women who are smarter than them.

Corr, whose ego is tied only to her intellect