Well, good that you can read other people’s minds. It was the height thing that got me. I prefer women that are a few inches taller than me or a few inches shorter than me. I have no idea why.
Incidentally, we also have no idea how she “wears” those measurements. They aren’t all-holy rulers to go by for what a figure truly looks like.
But you knew that, right?
Since tranquillis went out of his way to quote measurements (including weight and height), I am assuming he was reacting to her measurements (including weight and height). Unless maybe he was reacting to her choice in fonts?
And even if you are reacting to height, and not the curves or the weight, you are still giving positive feedback to a body…short women with insecurities are now saying “why couldn’t I be six feet tall.” Yeah, not your problem, but you guys are so busy saying “we like all types.”
No, I have no idea how she wears those measurements (I have a pretty good clue, having been, at one point 103lbs, 5’6", 38-26-37). But that is moot…I’m not the one sending internet wolf whistles based on a set of numbers.
I had no idea that anyone in this thread suggested that there are no things that they find physically attractive. I had no idea that any males in this thread made mention that if a woman isn’t perfect, or at least within high tolerance of standards, she must not be attractive.
In short, while I can understand a person’s insecurity, I won’t be held to blame for it. I see something I like, I may choose to mention it. I see something I don’t like, I may choose to mention that as well. Because I like one thing in particular that does not, in any way, ever, under any circumstances, mean that that is the only thing I like.
To believe otherwise is not asking for understanding on a matter; it is asserting what you don’t want to be true, and then being upset about it.
Yes, if you lose/gain weight you may become more/less attractive to the general population of men. Yes, quadrupalegics have a hard time finding dates. No, this isn’t entirely the fault of the media. Yes, the media is responsible, at least partly, for forcing a certain standard of beauty on the public. No, that standard of beauty is not stable. No, most of the public can never reach that standard, even when it sits still for a few years. Yes, almost everyone seems to understand that. This isn’t a debate over beaty, its a subjective perception and it isn’t fair. I apologize if you feel that this affects who you are as a person, and I am sorry if telling you that there are people who wouldn’t use it to judge you doesn’t help with anything. I will not apologize for something that pleases me. Ever. Nor will I feel guilt for it. I do not expect you to live up to my expectations of television stars; they do not expect us to accept less; you do not expect me to live up to those standards either. If you do expect me to live up to those standards then the problem, IMO, is with you. I simply won’t, and can’t, do it.
Wow. I do believe this single, less-than-average-looking guy has actually become offended in a thread about how women perceive themselves. WTF happened?
Please go back and re-read my posts. I hold many (4 or 5, at least) different standards for beauty, and the description Corrvin gave us happens to fit quite nicely into one of them.
6’, 185#, 38" bust and hips is not the body of a super model or a Pam Anderson. It’s the body of an Amazon. It’s not a descrition of a size 4 media fantasy, that’s the description of a real person. Actually, it’s not the bust/hips measurement, anyway. It’s 6’ / 185# that gets my attention… If she told me she was blonde and her name was Jean, I’d swear she was my first long-term love affair. Nobody can get that relationship out of their minds.
If you’re going to take the fact that I have a preference for certain ranges of body types, and conclude that if you can’t meet those ranges I can’t find you attractive, or that physical appearance is my only motivation, then you’ve completely missed my point(s). Yeah, absolutely I find looks important, but the measurements are much less important than the other things looks can tell me: Are you reasonabley well-groomed, or not? Do you hold yourself and move with confidence? Will you look me in the eye? Are you in good health? These things, and more, are what men gain from “looks”, and are all components of what we see when we first lay eyes upon you. If you want to stay pretty to me after I’ve met you, there had damn well better be some other things going on, like a modicum of intellegence, self confidence, and humor.
I don’t know what the women in “cheap porno magazines” look like, but if they resemble the women in, say, “Playboy”, then they are no closer to the average woman than fashion models. Although 36-26-36 is bigger than 34-24-34 it’s not a lot bigger, and a woman who doesn’t naturally have those hourglass proportions cannot possibly gain them through diet and exercise. Even a woman who lucks into the “right” body type through a fortunate combination of genes is not going to look like a porn model without the same amount of makeup, plastic surgery, and airbrushing that goes into making porn models look like porn models.
I thought the point was that we collectively like all types? Certainly there are physical characteristics that I find more attractive than others, and certain combinations that I find more attractive than others, but what I think, and what erl thinks, and what Tranquillis thinks could be very different.
FWIW, I don’t recall anyone stating that actually have no preference when it comes to appearance. There seems to be a general consensus of “curves are good”, but it’s not universal.
There was some time ago an MPSIMS thread discussing some of the stranger things people found attractive. Some of these showed how truly arbitrary “attractiveness” can be. I, for example, find a small flaw/blemish/scar on the face to be very attractive in many cases. I think it has something to do with off-setting an otherwise perfect visage. I also like left-handed women. I don’t know, I can’t explain it. But there you have it. Does this mean some insecure woman is going to go out and try to scar herself up, or start trying to bat left-handed? I would hope not.
As far as advertising goes, they exploit the insecurities that exist in order to sell their products. I think all it takes is some one at a celebrity-type event doing something a little different, some one else of note saying it looks good, and suddenly you’ve got a million people trying to emulate the look…which advertising will then capitalize on. When it becomes the norm, some one else will come along and do something different. And thus the cycle repeats.
I think the women in general are a lot more “in-tune” with the current trends in fashion, and do more “keep up” work than the men really expect or even care about. This is the case in my family, and my circle of friends. My wife knows what’s currently hot, who the current big models are, etc. She wants to drop 20-30 pounds, develop some rock-hard abs, go running and develop the athletic look. I, on the other hand, think she’s fine the way she is, and have expressed no desire for her to change. It’s not about me, it’s about her. Even in the case you mention of some insecure girl wanting to be taller due to Tranq’s post, it’s about how she feels about herself.
So, I do care about appearance. It’s not the most significant thing, but there are certain things I find more attractive than others. And if some insecure girl feels she must live up to my standards of what’s attractive, I maintain that that is not my problem, assuming that I’m not being an asshole about it (“You look terrible…you should lose some weight”, etc).
I don’t think the trend can be stopped, I think people are too concerned with fame, popularity, etc. We try to emulate the beautiful people, the advertisers peddle their wares with beautiful people, and we buy them so we can think of ourselves as beautiful people.
Bit of a rambling post, I hope it made some sense…it’s Friday afternoon and the brain cells are shutting down.
And I’m afraid we are miscommunicating…
There is nothing wrong with being attracted to Amazons, or women who are 5’2" with big hips…and yes you are attacted to many types of women…
The point the women here have been making is what we HEAR - which is not the same as what you SAY - and further how what we HEAR impacts our self image. You got picked on, because of all the women who described themselves physically, you reacted to the one who posted some sterotypically very nice measurements (yes 6 feet tall is a little tall for ideal - but we women have been told you need to be 5’10" or taller to be a model for years, so it seems pretty ideal to many of us. Yes, 185 with a 26 inch waist is saying she probably has more muscle and is bigger boned than ideal, but the 26" waist tells me she isn’t overweight - quite the contrary.)
Men say “there are many standards,” “I find several types of women attractive” “No, honey, you look just fine after having the baby.” And all these things are true. Undoubtably. You guys are not lying. But it is also true that men like women who aren’t US. That you chose Corrvin and not Mag or dogsbody or jarbaby or seawitch or myself. Maybe this makes no sense to the male mind. Maybe I’m feeling it wrong - cause I’m not too female in my own mind.
Corrvin, sorry to use your body as the example here, and to dissect it over the internet. You sound lovely to me.
And Erislover, you were probably right in your first instinct, this is not the thread for flirting.
erislover:
I’ll tell you WTF happened. You (like I did around 17 posts ago) have come to the conclusion that no matter what you say or propose… they don’t want to hear it.
Many women in this thread are not searching for solutions. They are searching for pity.
They do not want to take responsibility for how they see themselves. That is their choice. And there is clearly nothing any man can say which can change their mind.
We’ve got 2 things going on in this thread:
A discussion about how advertising and the media contribute to how women feel about themselves, and.
A discussion of what men like about women - some guys trying to make the women feel better, inject some sanity, or in some cases order us to get over ourselves already and some women trying to explain how they feel.
The point is, how men ACTUALLY feel about how women look and how women ACTUALLY look to other people isn’t the issue. The population keeps breeding. I’m grateful to the guys who have posted in that vein because you are just illustrating the depth of the problem - “Men recognize that a variety of body types and looks are beautiful, women recognize that a variety of body types and looks are beautiful, so what is the *&&^%&&^@#!!! problem? Just get over it already the way Acco40 has.”
The problem is that if a 5-year-old girl is asking for Slim Fast by name so she can be skinny and sexy like the women she sees on TV, 11-year-old girls go on diets, teenagers develop eating disorders and contests to see who can lose the most weight, and grow into adult women who never feel that they are quite good enough, the advertising is working a little too well.
The images that surround us from a very early age send an extremely powerful message that “This is what OK looks like.” The distorted messages somehow more powerful than the “we like all kinds of beauty” message that we get from our friends and lovers. Even when they hear “you are beautiful/desirable/wonderful” from a real live person in their lives, some women can’t believe it or accept it because inside they are hearing the taunts of their childhood classmates, the offhand comments of assholes at baseball games, the constant reminders everywhere that they could be thinner, richer, and have shinier hair. Something has warped their perception. So what causes it? Is the dioxin in our rayon-blend tampons causing some kind of mass neuroses? Is this the way women have always felt about themselves? Ideas? Bueller? Anyone?
It is possible to be happy with yourself and ignore the barrage, to a large extent. But then some asshole makes a comment at a baseball game, or mom emails you some weight-loss tips, or someone in the gym locker room exclaims “My god, how did you get so skinny! I can see your ribs,” or your calorie-obsessed friend makes some comment about the food on your plate, and you get reminded that it’s all around you. It takes a conscious, steady effort to ignore it and swim against the cultural tide.
Whack-A-Mole (whose name I secretly pronounce to rhyme with “guacamole”), I love the idea of teaching kids to look at advertising critically.
OK, I get that now. Actually, that’s the first time it’s been said in way that I could get the distinction. So, what can men do to help? Can we do anything to help?
Hey, pick away. I asked for it by flirting in the GD (Sorry Corrvin Mods, and everyone else. I’ll try and remember my manners in the future) I’ve got a strong ego, and can take it (just ask Mrs. Tranq… she’ll tell you all about it… 
).
Actually, until just a moment ago, it didn’t. Now it does, a bit. It’s alien, but I think I get where you’re coming from.
Again, my apologies. You all just experienced the “construction worker” part of my soul, and this really isn’t the place for wolf-whistles and “yowza-yowza” behavior. I’ll try and remember that for the future.
First of all, you’re right. We’re not looking for solutions. Sometimes people are just saying things for the purpose of putting it out on the table. My husband is guilty of doing this thing where every time I tell a story about work or something he assumes I want him to FIX it, or OFFER SOLUTIONS. Not true. Sometimes I’m just yammering. I thought some Men on the thread were interested in hearing how women felt on these issues so I talked about it.
Secondly, you’re wrong. There is something a man can say to change, at least, my mind. And that is: the truth. Some women are unappealing physically, and some women are not. I’d rather my husband say “you’ve got nice tits, but your ass is a nightmare” than “everything about you is perfect”, because then I know the tits comment is true.
jarbaby
As a gay male I entirely could identify with the way jarbabyj feels. I’m critical when it comes to judging male or females…if I don’t think someone looks good I’ll say it. I’d offer a few suggestions.
I am happy with a lot of things concerning about myself. But when it comes to appearance I am not satisfied. I know exactly where jarbabyj and the other women feel in this thread.
It looks to me like the women in this thread are carefully considering what everyone else has to say, and responding to it; rather than, in a blanket way, saying that “men will feel like they feel and don’t want to hear an argument.” I don’t think you can honestly claim to have done the same in reverse.
**
Well, if so, they’re obviously not getting it from you, since the main thrust of your arguments seems to be, “I have my shit together, no one else does; especially not women.”
**
I could quote you several chunks of posting from this thread in which the female participants have CLEARLY acknowledged elements of their self-image which they feel is self-inflicted. On the other hand, if you don’t feel like doing the work of reading carefully, I sure don’t feel like doing it for you.
I’d like to make clear, in all of this, that my comments are directed to your arguments, and not to you as a person. It occurs to me that some of what I’ve said above comes dangerously close to flaming, which is not my intent.
I’ve only one problem with that: It requires (or seems to, to me) that we (men) have to agree with your self assesment, when frequently, we don’t. I couldn’t imagine my wife with a different ass. It’s perfect (on her). If she doesn’t like her ass (which she doesn’t), she’s gonna call me a liar? I don’t think so.
This all boils down to subjective perceptions. There are no truths here. If your man tells you he likes your ass (or tits, legs, whatever), either you’ve got to think him a liar (and lose respect for him), or you’ve got to take what he says at face value. Any other path leads to madness (or GD threads 
) A little guide to help you out here: Men generally say what’s on their mind. If they say they like your <insert body part here>, they most likely mean it. Take your complement, pat them on the head, and go on about your day. If you don’t like your body parts, go work on them, but don’t look to men for validation of your self-opinion. Our range of “what looks good” is so inclusive that you almost certainly fall somewhere within it. (unless you’re Babba Yaga 
)
THANK you. Isn’t the central question of this thread “Why do women feel they need to inflict this kind of crap on themselves? Is it at least partially because of images we see in the media?”
If you don’t think it comes at least partially from the media, where do you think it comes from? Are we all just crazy, irrational, immature, self-obsessed, self-pitying?
That’s what Acco40 seems to be saying. Oh, and Acco40, I could not possibly be less interested in hearing more about your “solutions.”
You may not be looking for solutions but I am (it was specifically asked for in the OP). I’m not trying to fix anyone in particular but lessen the problem as a whole. I mentioned it in an earlier post (and Magdalene even before that) that critical thiking may be a good step in the right direction. Next time you look at an ad or model and think, “Gee, my life would be better if I had that/were more like that” stop and think if that is really so. Consider what the ad is trying to do and consider more deeply your own situation. You may still conclude you want whatever it is but you should be better off for the exploration.
The ‘Mr. Fixit’ syndrome is common to men (it is a major point in the book Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus. Whatever you think of that particular book the Mr. Fixit syndrome seems on the mark. Try and communicate this fact to your husband. Ask him to basically shutup while you relate whatever is on your mind and promise you will make it clear to him if you desire specific help (i.e. ask his opinion).
I have done this with my wife and it has helped our communication. We still have our fair share of miscommunication but at least this is one less straw off of that camel’s back.
In men’s defense (or at least my defense) sometimes not being Mr. Fixit is damn near impossible. When I’ve heard griping on the same subject for the N[sup]th[/sup] time I tend to get fed-up and want to try to resolve whatever it is. For example, if you have just complained for the 20[sup]th[/sup] time that sticking your hand in the fire really hurts I start to feel compelled to tell you that maybe you shouldn’t stick your hand in the fire (whether you asked for my advice or not).
Not on this planet!
I’ve heard refrains similar to this in the past. I’ve seen men (including myself) dumb enough to take the woman at her word on this and I’ve seen the trainwreck results. It ain’t pretty! Worse, it is something that is likely to haunt the man for years to come.
The ONLY response a wise man makes is an immediate and unequivocal answer to the effect of, “I love you” or “You are beautiful”. ANY hesitation…ANY equivocation on the man’s part is the beginning of his doom.
It may seem I am overracting or just trying to be funny on this but never, ever I have experienced anything that would lead me to doubt this view.
Frankly this one is all the woman’s fault. They laid the minefield men have to navigate on this particular topic. In no way has an honest answer regarding a woman’s looks EVER been encouraged. Men are taught via pain to learn where most of the mines are (usually by stumbling over them and occasionally from watching others blunder) but there are always a few laying hidden just to keep us on our toes.
Sing it, brother. I am not a liar because my subjective perception of beauty is different from yours, jarbaby’s husband’s, or whoever.
I would like to offer a general apology for my tone in my last post, but the sentiment remains: you dont know what I like, except for the rare, shining moments when I say what I do like. I like a certain painting by Dali; does this make me a surrealist? Hardly. I like chocolate candy bars; do I like chocolate ice cream? I think my girlfriend is beautiful. Period. (well, when I has one, anyway) That is the reason I was with her in the first place. Did she have the same opinion of herself as I did of her? Nope. Do the reasons I find her beautiful apply to what I find beautiful in any woman anywhere? Not necessarily, but it is possible.
So girls, it isn’t all in your head, I don’t want to say that. Christ, now I don’t know what I want to say. If I sound supportive I risk being called a liar, if I state my opinions on one thing they may suddenly apply to something else entirely. But I can’t just sit here and listen to this and be silent.
I am still in a veritable shock over the incident stoid mentioned. I wish I could sum up the confused feelings I have about that one. I’d like to start buying those clothes just so I could quit buying them, damn.
Well, I respectfully disagree, and I am a woman who does not ‘lay minefields’.
If i get up 365 days a year, put on approximately 47 different outfits and go through 3 to 4 hairstyles in that year and my husband says “you’re beautiful” every time, I’m not buying it.
The thing I love best about Mr. Jarbaby is that he’ll say, “You know, that sweater looks kind of tight across the back. You look so great in the blue shirt, why don’t you wear that?”
DONE. And then I feel fantastic, because I know I’m wearing something that he HONESTLY feels looks good.
And this was something taught to me as a CHILD. My mother and father both were brutally honest. I would bring artwork home from school and they’d say, “this is nice, but I’m not going to put it up, because I still like that tree picture better.”
That way, I knew they REALLY REALLY loved the tree picture.
jarbaby
erislover, your heart is in the right place, but stop trying to be “supportive” in the discussion. You don’t know us. We don’t know you. We don’t need your “support.”
I hate that this thread is turning into a stereotypical battle of the sexes, because we are all better than that.
Erislover, Tranquilis, Whack-A-Mole, et al
Do you think too many women have problems with how they look?
Are you insecure about your looks? If so, why? If not, why not?
Do you think women’s perceptions of themselves are based on the reality of how you perceive them? Do you know women that you think are beautiful that think they themselves are ugly?
Does it frustrate you when you give women compliments and they don’t seem to believe you? That you have to spend time “convincing” them?
Do you think the way women are portrayed in the media contributes to the self-image problems of women and especially young girls?
If yes, do you have ideas for how to counterract this?
If no, what do you think the problem is?
Let me get this straight…
Your husband critiques your wardrobe, and does’t get clobbered for it, in fact gets gratitude for it. You declare him honest for offering his opinion on your clothes, but when he does the same for your person, you’re not able to accept that he’s being just as honest?
Am I hearing you correctly?