Source of the melody of this Irish song from the American Civil War?

[An_Gadai]

@cwthree

Hey BrainGlutton, I got yer answer right here:
So, it’s a modern arrangement of two traditional tunes.

Now that he mentions it I can clearly make out Martinmas Time but I never knew the source of the melody. Assumed when I heard this song some time ago that it was an American gospel melody.

[BrainGlutton]

@BrainGlutton

Oh, not now for songs of a nation’s wrongs,
not the groans of starving labor . . .

“Not now”?! Come to think of it, all of that was what the war was mostly about!

[BrainGlutton]

William Faulkner:

For every Southern boy fourteen years old, not once but whenever he wants it, there is the instant when it’s still not yet two o’clock on that July afternoon in 1863, the brigades are in position behind the rail fence, the guns are laid and ready in the woods and the furled flags are already loosened to break out and Pickett himself with his long oiled ringlets and his hat in one hand probably and his sword in the other looking up the hill waiting for Longstreet to give the word and it’s all in the balance, it hasn’t happened yet, it hasn’t even begun yet, it not only hasn’t begun yet but there is still time for it not to begin against that position and those circumstances which made more men than Garnett and Kemper and Armistead and Wilcox look grave yet it’s going to begin, we all know that, we have come too far with too much at stake and that moment doesn’t need even a fourteen-year-old boy to think This time. Maybe this time with all this much to lose than all this much to gain: Pennsylvania, Maryland, the world, the golden dome of Washington itself to crown with desperate and unbelievable victory the desperate gamble, the cast made two years ago.

Kinda betrays a certain cultural blindness, doesn’t it? Because the 14-year-old Southern black boy is just as Southern as the Southern white boy, in lineage at least as anciently established in the region, but I doubt he had such fantasies of Confederate victory very often!

[BrainGlutton]

@Chronos

The Irish are the people that God mad mad: For all their wars are merry, and all their songs are sad.

The minstrel’s son goes forth to war
In the ranks of death you’ll find him
His father’s sword he hath girded on
And his wild harp slung behind him
“Land of song,” said the warrior bard
"Though all the world betray thee
"One sword at least thy rights shall guard,
“One loyal harp shall praise thee!”

The minstrel fell, but the foeman’s chains
Could not bear his proud soul under
The harp he loved never spoke again,
For he tore its chords asunder
And he said, "No chains shall sully thee,
"Thou soul of love and bravery!
"Thy songs were made for the true and free!
“They shall never sound in slavery!”

[vontsira]

I’m not American – or Irish – and consider that both sides in the American Civil War had an admissible point of view; and know nothing about the melodies of any song dealt with in the thread. I can’t help, though, expressing the opinion that the words of the song, as quoted in entirety in the OP, are not far from the most dreadful load of bad, grotesque, ham-handed, melodramatic, mawkish, unintentially comic versification, that I’ve ever encountered. I’d imagine the “Irish Brigade” having hired William McGonagall to write their lyrics; only, one has the feeling that old William would most probably have been a Union guy.

[cwthree]

@vontsira

…not far from the most dreadful load of bad, grotesque, ham-handed, melodramatic, mawkish, unintentially comic versification…

This is a not inaccurate description of most popular songs from that time. To be honest, it’s true of most popular songs from most of history - the folk aren’t known for their subtlety.

[vontsira]

As regards the words: a minority of popular / folk songs are truly gems, though by uneducated or ill-educated “makers” – the ones, I suspect, which tend to last and be treasured. Most, tend to be pretty crude and cringe-making. (Of course, educated poets and lyricists come up with plenty of absolute dreck too, and always have done.)

[Elendil_s_Heir]

@Octarine

I think I got the first one - “Rosin’ The Bow.” As for the second, I’ll keep looking.

“Rosin the Bow” was also the tune of the rousing 1860 GOP campaign song “Lincoln and Liberty,” here sung by Ronnie Gilbert (after a brief introduction): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxWwDgOj0oE

Here’s another favorite Kincaid Irish Brigade song of mine, “The Opinions of Paddy Magee”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-T66xmOsi4A

[astorian]

Yes, “The Irish Brigade” definitely shares the melody of “Rosin the Bow,” which is all about an old drunkard preparing for death, giving instructions for his funeral, and offering to have a final glass of whiskey with the Grim Reaper himself.

[SecretaryofEvil]

@vontsira

I’m not American – or Irish – and consider that both sides in the American Civil War had an admissible point of view; and know nothing about the melodies of any song dealt with in the thread. I can’t help, though, expressing the opinion that the words of the song, as quoted in entirety in the OP, are not far from the most dreadful load of bad, grotesque, ham-handed, melodramatic, mawkish, unintentially comic versification, that I’ve ever encountered. I’d imagine the “Irish Brigade” having hired William McGonagall to write their lyrics; only, one has the feeling that old William would most probably have been a Union guy.

In defense of 19th century Irish Americans, most contemporary pop music has cheesy melodramatic ham-handed lyrics too.

OP have you ever heard Paddy’s Lamentation? It seems like it’d be right up your alley.

The Irish in the American Civil War- Paddy's Lamentation

[An_Gadai]

Found it fascinating upon watching Ken Burns’ Civil War how much of the soundtrack I was familiar with from the airs of Irish songs.

[BrainGlutton]

@An_Gadai

Found it fascinating upon watching Ken Burns’ Civil War how much of the soundtrack I was familiar with from the airs of Irish songs.

From “Finian’s Rainbow”:

FINIAN McLONERGAN: What’s the difference between Ireland and America?

SHARON McLONERGAN: There are more Irish here?