There’s another thing you can say, which is something like, “Look, I’m not clear on how I hurt you. But that’s my problem, not yours. You are hurt, and it’s because of what I did, and I’m deeply sorry that I’ve hurt you. I will work on understanding what I did wrong, and on not repeating those patterns. That’s my work to do, not yours.”
I first encountered this idea when I was eighteen, and my girlfriend wrote and performed a song that was clearly about me and my shortcomings as a boyfriend (I think they boiled down to “You don’t listen to me or respect me”). I genuinely didn’t understand where she was coming from, but --and this is key–I understood that I didn’t understand. I described it as if I were trying to swallow a cue ball: my mouth just wouldn’t open big enough for me to take it in, and my brain wouldn’t open enough for me to fully understand her criticism.
My lack of understanding didn’t mean that I rejected the criticism. It meant that I needed to spend more time working on understanding. She’d given me her best explanation, and now it was my turn to do some thinking.
Had I gone back to her and been like, “I don’t understand, you’re saying I don’t respect you, but that’s clearly wrong, how could you say that?” it would’ve been fundamentally dishonest and disrespectful.
I think these parents, who are asking for a “clearer idea,” don’t need their daughter’s help with that. They almost certainly have the information they need. They need to work with a therapist to understand it.
To amplify what @Eonwe is saying: if you want to truly understand their situation then you cannot rely on them–they’re telling you that they don’t have the answer. Look elsewhere.
This is exactly right. “Come make your case and I’ll argue, belittle and gaslight so much that you will be an emotional wreck.” It’s controlling behavior and ignores the boundaries the child put up.
This is well put. One common trait of many narcissistic or abusive people - not just parents, but such folks in general - is that they think that their notion of how you should feel overrides how you actually do feel.
“I don’t think it’s a problem that I talk condescendingly to you, so you shouldn’t think it’s a problem either.”
Also, in such circumstances, the child has usually already told the parents, countless times, what the problem is. So for the parents to ask, for the X+1 time, “Tell me what the problem is and what’s making you angry,” isn’t a sincere request for knowledge - the parent already does know.
I have to agree with the sentiment ‘The signs are obvious if you know what to look for.’
My Gobhi and I attended a friend’s wedding. On seeing one of the groom’s cousins again, I immediately noticed that their arms were covered in tiny straight scars. They had been cutting for a long time. This person’s arms were entirely bare. I kept expecting somebody I knew to whisper something to me. Nobody did.
When we finally got back in Gobhi’s car, I told that we needed to talk, that it was important and that is wasn’t about us. I told her what I had seen and what it meant. She hadn’t noticed. She kept asking if I was sure. Eventually, she called the person’s mother. (I forget why Gobhi had her number) Mom was aware of the scars. She had been told they were scratches from the family pet. This was entirely implausible. Eventually, the truth came out and the kid got therapy.
The signs had been literally in plain sight. The only person who noticed was me. I noticed only because so many of my friends have been mentally ill and I knew to watch them for signs of suicidal ideation and self harm.
People estrange because they are tired of the dance of dysfunction.
They recognize easily that, “Let’s talk it out though.”, “Just tell me what I did…”, is just the controlling person trying to get you to engage with the dance again.
It is a gut wrenching, life altering decision to estrange from one’s parent. No child does so on a whim, or to make a point, or just to act up.
Your child estranges and you don’t have ANY idea why? No one should ever believe that fairy tale.
Just adding, and for those who haven’t been exposed to controlling people, it can seem like a reasonable request and it’s perplexing to learn that it’s an issue, because in their life, it hasn’t been, and they don’t have or know about the types of ongoing manipulation that’s discussed here.
Exactly! If people have grown up with (relatively) normal parents don’t understand how draining it is to deal with parents who are constantly invalidating you.
They may know, but they don’t get it and trying to change the worldview of someone like that is impossible in most cases. It’s only if the person really wants to change and gets professional help.
Referring to the OP’s belief that her friends’ children were being completely candid with her::
When both I and Mrs. J. were growing up, we were strictly cautioned not to reveal family secrets…to relatives. We’d be on the verge of making a trip to visits aunts/uncles/cousins who lived a short distance away and who we saw multiple times a year - and there’d be warnings (in my case, from my mother) not to divulge stuff like less than stellar academic achievement, controversies over clothing selection or choice of friends/dates, a sibling taking up smoking again etc.
To use the eloquent phraseology once expressed to Mrs. J. regarding such revelations outside the immediate family circle, “It’s a dirty bird that poops in its own nest”.
If these sorts of innocuous revelations were taboo , think about how major family dramas and/or abuse are suppressed so that non-family members don’t hear about them. Kids could very well become fine actors and actresses in pretending that everything is swell at home.
Eh, there are some very clueless people in the world. But if a child estranges themselves from a parent, i don’t expect the child to want to do the emotional labor of discussing why, even if the parent is actually clueless. The child is hurt enough without adding that.
I’m thinking, for instance, of my son’s roommate. She’s not actually estranged from her parents, but it’s close. She’s a queer woman with mental health issues. And her mom doesn’t understand why the woman is upset that Mom voted for Trump. Woman isn’t going to explain it, she’s just going to avoid the topic. It’s too painful.
And it works both ways. If a child is kept isolated from their friends, such as never being allowed to sleep over at a friend’s house, or play dates are few and infrequent, the child doesn’t realize until they are older that what they had was not normal.
My sister-in-law had a classmate come stay with the family when my SIL was in high school. The classmate’s home life was horrible, due to very nasty divorce proceedings. To this day she is very fond of my mother-in-law and very thankful for how kind she was. She was kinder when the classmate was living there. She didn’t scream, she didn’t throw things at her, or any of her kids or husband, when the classmate was there.
I’m glad my mother-in-law could be kind to the classmate. Because my MIL was cruel to my mother and to me. And MIL doesn’t understand why her son is apathetic towards her.
FIL apologized for not getting divorced earlier. He also didn’t realize how bad things were for the kids.
Yes, that’s the thing. Very few people are all good it all evil. People can be warm and supportive on some relationships and cruel and damaging in others.
My husband’s uncle was mostly a horrible person. But he was good to my husband, and stepped up as a father figure when my husband’s uncle divorced his mom and filled to another state to avoid paying child support and basically wasn’t there for him in any way.
My husband was his heir and executor. (We informed his estranged son, who did not challenge the will, and was quite nice to us, but was not interested in attending the funeral.) At the funeral, my husband acknowledged that his uncle had flaws, and requested that we talk about his good points at the funeral. So we did.
People are complex, and you never know everything about someone else.
It is the norm and consistently people don’t get it.
I recently read this book:
Former SS concentration camp guard and beloved chief custodian of a suburban High School, Oak Park and River Forest outside of Chicago.
Oh the cries of forgiveness and more disbelief that this sweet man could ever have been part of anything evil. And the contempt for those who demanded he be no longer employed.
Someone who has been kind cannot be someone capable of doing evil things. It does not compute.
Reminds me of Valerian Trifa, a vicious Nazi who sneaked into the U.S. after WWII, eventually rising to become archbishop in the Romanian Orthodox Church. His neighbors in Michigan thought he was a fine fellow and were resentful of the ultimately successful effort to get him deported.