Besides the assumption that every athlete is a jerk, Spectrum, you also make the assumption that every student is equally good at academic subjects or the arts. What do you do with the kid who just isn’t that good at or that interested in music? Or drawing/painting? Or drama? Do you force him to play an instrument, thereby teaching him that music is unpleasant and difficult? Do you insist that art is the only thing that matters, so he learns that he has no worthwhile skills?
Of course sports shouldn’t take precedence over academics. And yes, we have put too much emphasis on athletics in too many cases. But that doesn’t mean that there is no value there at all.
It is indeed selective of its student body- but it is a public high school. In New York City , where high school sports are not all that important and where no high school , public or private , that I know of has well-kept stadiums for the exclusive use of the sports teams. They are lucky if they have a field which is used for baseball games, football games, gym classes and also rented to outside organizations. The scores don’t get on TV, or much attention in the newspapers, the whole neighborhood doesn’t show up on Friday night for the football game, and the coaches are teachers who take on coaching as an extra duty, just like a music teacher might take on the job of directing the chorus or an English teacher the job of advisor to the student newspaper.
You’ve probably never heard of Stuyvesant before, if you believe that the jocks get undeserved accolades sent their way. More likely, the Intel finalists and semi-finalists get the accolades.
And exactly how are those two sides different for sports as opposed to the people whose “lives are made wonderful” or self-esteem is harmed becasue of their academic abilities, looks, artistic talent, writing skill, their parents’ wealth or any other quality? You know, kids get picked on for being poor or having low grades as well as for being clumsy.
Besides, you left out the ( probably far greater number of ) people who weren’t good at sports and either played anyway or just didn’t care enough about their lack of ability to have it affect their self-esteem. Believe it or not, it is possible to not be particularly good at a sport but participate in it anyway. Little League, where everyone plays, goes up to 18. Pop Warner, where everyone plays, can go up to 16.
You’ve got a point about places where financing sports takes up so much money that other activities are underfunded, but that doesn’t happen everywhere.
You may not realize this, but there are many people who don’t include the arts as academic endeavors, some of whom believe money spent on the arts would be better spent on science ,math and social studies.
This is the attitude that gets me up and angry. Let me give you a real life example: I graduated from Florida State university with a four year degree in fine arts and sculpture. Tentatively, i'm taking a job with one of the foremost american sculptors, Sandy Proctor. Looks like the arts paid off for me at least. Seems that My self estemm is Just fine too, and without sports to thank. Last year during my senior year, the football team was allotted a million and some change to build a dining hall specifically for the football teams. Athletes are the only ones allowed to eat at it. From what i've heard, the food is pretty damn decent as well. During that same time, the homecoming floats, and parade was also alloted 100,000.00, for a fucking parade.
So, our vending machine went out of product, totally empty. The only other one is in the drama dept and we arn't supposed to use it, it's also on the other side of a large building. We put in FOUR requests a month for several months and it was not refilled. Art dept: Sorry, but we really don't have the funds to spend on vending. We had no water fountain available, nothing but a sink, which i'd hesitate to drink from as it's meant to be a clean-up area. Wanna defend the discrepency in the fund allocation there? The athletic dept has built a whole new stadium as well as a dining hall, and the art dept can't refill it's vending. Further at a separate location, there is no hadicapped accesible ramp, nor bathroom in a sculpture facility. Again the reasoning is lack of funds.
If you haven’t lived there, Tallahassee is a football maniac town. EVERYTHING shuts down during a game, and traffic becomes unbearable. We’ve had several players investigated for passing around illegal checks, ditching class and skating through classes all thanks to good ol’ bobby bowden and his football program. Also on the ignored list have been assault and battery as well as sexual assault. There is a DEFINETE preferential treatment going on and it sucks floppy donkey cock. I’m all for EQUALITY, not the disbarring of sports. All programs should recieve equal funding.
Deagan:
I don’t think anyone here has said that sometimes the whole sports attitude gets out of control. I have some issues with it myself. But I don’t think that justifies the idea that there should be no sports in any educational venue whatever, or that athletic activities have no value to kids or in school.
Spectrum:
I never said that anyone should be forced to take classes in the arts. What I was asking you was why it’s okay for kids to have their self-esteem assaulted in those areas, but not in athletics. Why do you assume that everyone has an equal level of ability in academics and arts?
I’m all for equality as well. The example you gave does seem excessive. Student athletes are called student athetes for a reasion. I do believe that they are students first. But you’re still labeling all athletes because of a few bad ones and those who support them. If you don’t like how money is being allocated, become involved in your student government. Universitys are wonderful places. You get to voice your opinon without fear of reprisal. Get enough people who share your opinon and you may even impart some form of change.
I played ice hockey in college on a small club team. We had to supply all our own equipment. The university usually gave us enough money for ice time and travel expenses. (a couple of thousand dollars). We had to apply for funding just like any other student organization. On years when we received less funding, we had to pay our own way. Did we stop the art department from getting a water fountain? Maybe. But if we did, it was our fellow students who gave us the money.
I don’t assume that. However, the situation is different. Frankly, being bad at academics is something that should impact students, because academics, unlike sports, are important. People should be judged on their academic achievement, for that is what will/should determine one’s eventual status in college and the world.
Unlike throwing a ball, being able to write is an important skill, and one we should laud.
Of course, being bad at academics should impact students- in terms of the grades. But that’s not the question. The question is why is it okay for kids to have their self-esteem assaulted because they are not good (or good enough) at academics, or the arts. Because you believe it’s perfectly fine to look down on people with little artistic or academic ability? Because you believe that of all the extra-curricular activities a school might have, only sports are non-academic and therefore worthless? Is it somehow better to have your self esteem assaulted , your parents be abusive, and be picked on because you can only make C’s in Business Math ?
I haven’t been agreeing with spectrum’s posts in this thread very much, but I have to chime in on this.
If a school team wins a game, or wins a championship, well, it’s great that they worked hard and played well. And perhaps they were inspired, to some extent, by their fans. But I, too, fail to understand the attitude that if West beats Central, then that means West is a “better” school than Central. Nor do I understand why it’s acceptable to pick a fight, a physical fight, with a kid you encounter in a parking lot, just because he happens to be wearing another school’s jacket.
Come on, people. A school is a brick building. You can’t judge a whole student body by the performance of a couple dozen people in one activity.
You went to Fl State (aka Free Shoes U?). If you look at most of the stats, most NCAA men’s division 1-A football programs MAKE money. A lot of the 1-A mens’ basketball does too. They bring in more revenue than cost. THEIR INCOME SUBSIDIZES THE FINE ARTS DEPARTMENT!
Almost all other sports, and men’s b-ball and football at a lower level, lose money.
So does the drama dept.
This does not mean mesomorphic morons should be admitted to the universities. The athletes should be held to the same academic and behavioral standards as everyone else. No Rocks for Jocks courses. I’d also do away with the fact that in many, if not most, schools the hard science majors take the same intro Lit course English majors take, but the English majors have Physics for Poets or Math for Morons, a course the physics/math major gets no credit for. Clear bias against the science folk (yes, I was a science geek). If a jock gets busted, and the conviction would throw Charlie Chemistry or Helen History out, toss him too. (not charge, conviction).
FTR, I went to a high school with no football team, baseball stands on the order of most Little League fields, but several NYC championships in baseball, track, and basketball. My first college did not have scholarships in football or baseball.
Especially at a HS level, the academics should come first. If cuts are made, the sports programs AND THE ARTS should be cut before the sciences, languages, etc.
Interscholastic sports are good, but much of the same teamwork and spirit can be
when Mr. Jones’ homeroom faces Ms. Smith’s in intramural basketball. And a lot cheaper.
And for those who denigrate sports as just hitting a ball with a stick, sculpture is hitting a rock with a hammer in a nice way, painting is slopping paint on some cloth, and singing is just saying things in a pleasing voice. Why are these “academic”? I reject the arts being more important than sports here. Why is an actor memorizing lines more intellectual than a halfback memorizing plays? If anything, the RB is going to have to think MORE in his role on the field, and react to changing circumstances faster, than an actor onstage. (read blitzes, etc). Money tight? Want to keep that Econ prof ( a legitimiate academic)? I’d look at the drama dept as fast as the baseball field. And the fact that someone cited 2000 people at a ( basketball, was it ?) game as opposed to 200 for drama means the student body apparently prefers basketball to drama, too.
FTR, I object to my tax dollars going to build stadia for pro teams, including the teams I follow. (note: not all arenas/stadia are publically funded, though some who aren’t get tax breaks). And I object to funding the NEA as well.
By what definition is playing make-believe academic?
Actually, with the HS football vitriol, and the stadia talk, I’d guess Texas, possibly Oklahoma.
And I noticed Spectrum never acknowledged being corrected about Stuyvesant being a public school - and one of the best ones in NYC.
Actually, the majority of their profits go right back into subsidizing the football program and the upkeep and purchase of equipment. If we can get them to be financially independant, i’ll be appeased. The Dining hall and Stadium were paid for out of student tuition, donations and parking violation money.
As to how money ought to be distributed, I whole heartedly agree that the arts, as well as sports are secondary to proper academics. I only propose that sports and the arts recieve EQUAL funding from whatever’s left. It’s better to have two underfunded programs that those interested can raise money for; than to have one program that only a select few can enjoy. After all, it’s only fair that on the H.S. level that ALL the students have access to programs that may allow them to excel. Some are good at academics, some in sports, some in the arts. ALL deserve a chance to shine. If we placed more value on those other programs, then getting booster clubs for the arts would be easier. It’s a cultural problem, but one that’s not likely to change. The only solution is to distribute funds fairly, no matter how little there may be left.
While art, music, drama, etc., are not any more important than sports, I think that in some cases, they can earn more money.
Okay, can’t speak for music or drama, but as a “starving artist” type, I’m almost positive I’ve generated more income from my art than any of my sports enthusiast schoolmates.
How many people go on to be professional atheletes? Few? How many make any money off of their atheletics?
However, while I’m probably never going to be a “big name” artist raking in the bucks, I’ve consistently made money (maybe not always a lot) from my art, and I will very likely continue to do so, well into my elder years. Sell a painting here, a photo there, get a commission here and there. I suspect that many other of the arty kids I knew in school are in the same boat. Either they’ve had jobs that are directly art-related, or else they’ve actually made money now and then from their abilities. And when you think of it, same can be said (to what degree, I don’t know) to musicians who play now and then in smoky little clubs, and so forth. They can continue to make money here and there for the rest of their lives. Not all of them, but I suspect that the percentage of music-inclined students make money from their music is higher than the football star students who make money from football throughout their lives.
It’s true - only a small percentage of HS athletes will eventually make a living of sports, but I’ve heard they also go to classes and learn other things in school, so …there you go.
I seriously doubt that everyone who takes science and math in school turns out to be a scientist or mathematician either, for that matter. Many of them end up taking jobs that have nothing at all to do with their education so what’s the point of bringing up the fact that most HS athletes will not turn pro?
I also learned to type in school, which will help me get jobs and make money, but typing has nothing to do with my art training.
I went to school, the school athletes went to school, we both learned stuff that was not related to art or athletics. Who’d a thought? :rolleyes:
But I think the odds are better that their good science grades got them that degree in science, math or chemistry in college, which then qualified them for that great job. (This is the case with both my sisters.)
I’m sure that being good in sports is a great thing, but I may be unclear, but how many good jobs can someone get based on the fact that they were a football hero in high school? Sure, maybe a sports scolarship will get them into college, and then if they apply themselves in some other subject, they can get a good job, because they worked hard at that other subject. But how does being a football hero, by itself, help them continue to make money, throughout their entire lives?
Because they don’t usually make any money off of their football hero status. That doesn’t mean that being a football hero is nothing. I’m not saying that. But what exactly does it do for them 20 years down the line? Just a lot of memories? Clippings from a school newspaper? Once again, I don’t begrudge them the experience, as long as they’re not arrogant shitheads about it. But I don’t see how being a football hero is more valuable to them, as a human being, then my art (and my “little paint by number sets”) has been for me.
There’s a sneering, condescending attitude amongst some about us artsy types. (As witnessed, subtly, on this thread.) As if we live in the clouds or something or all our scribbling and painting ends up being useless to us. But the fact is, I’ve repeatedly and consistently made money from my art. I’m by no means that remarkable of an artist and I’ll probably never be famous, but any encouragement I got in the art area during high school is still with me today, and I benefit from it today. And I hope to benefit from it throughout my entire life. I daresay that there are a lot of artists (and musicians) who continue to make money from their art or music. Maybe not huge buckets of money, but some sort of income. The same usually cannot be said for the former high school sports hero.
