How’s this for crazy. At the end of Episode IX, Rey and Kylo stop their swordfighting and say “Maybe we can join together and end this destructive conflict”. Then knock off the Emperor who’s likely watching (and cackling).
There’s stormtroopers and First Order tech for the military/security, experienced Imperial Officers can be administration (figuring they’re educated leaders). Likely doing a better job that the 15 remaining rebels. There’s now no Snoke or Emperor pulling evil Dark Side strings. No Luke say Light is always the better side.
I thought of this remembering a novel called “Death Star”, where it focused on average joes working the Death Star. There were contractors, restaurant owners, professional military gunners, architects, etc. Then about 3/4 of the way through, Lucas must’ve read a draft and reminded the author “Remember, the Empire is EVIL”. Then suddenly, the main characters decided to join the Rebellion.
The thread doesn’t counter my argument, i.e., if you saw the films and realized she’s not just a “kick-ass” fighter but can achieve what Jedi knights, ship pilots like Solo, and using the force with little or no training. That’s obviously a Mary Sue.
There were actually attempts to develop her character, with the most memorable for me involving her acting like an urchin in the desert, eating scraps of food and playing with helmets.
There is obviously a problem with writing for these recent films, and lack of character development is only part of it.
These appear to be padded on to her character and are barely mentioned or shown throughout the films. Even her training takes place only once, and after that she is shown to be able to achieve many things fairly quickly (how else can one sell a tent-pole flick to international audiences except by cramming the films with as much spectacle as possible, including as many chase and fight scenes as possible?), and for that is liked by generally everyone on her side. Obviously a Mary Sue.
FWIW, similar problems appear in other characters and even in recent films of other Hollywood franchises.
Luke struggles throughout the three movies, and even that continues in the new films. Rey is close to formidable from the first movie onward. That’s why one cannot sympathize with her character because there’s almost no internal conflict or vulnerability.
And that’s just one of several major writing problems with the new movies.
That’s funny, I thought the movies (and Ridley as an actor) did a very good job of showcasing her insecurities. And her prickly independence. Maybe you saw a different cut from what I saw?
You mean like how Luke blew up the Death Star using the Force, and moved a lightsaber with his mind, after exactly 1 (sword-fighting) lesson?
Personally, I think she got her Force proficiency from the 2-way mind link with Ben. She only displayed actual Force proficiency after that, before that it was just the “undercover” piloting and fighting. And Ben is shown to be Force-proficient in a way no Force user had on film - he froze a frigging blaster bolt!
She’s a Force user willing to fight on the Good side, I hear those are in short supply. Plus she’s shown as fairly empathetic. And as coming from some pretty shitty beginning circumstances. And she’s an attractive-looking young person. Liking her isn’t some mind control superpower, especially for a) young men like Flynn and Poe and b) parental figures like Leia and Han. I know I was sold on her as soon as she saved BB8.
Also, note that Luke never really seems to move beyond prickly irritation and distrust of her Dark Side potential. So good thing you had the “generally” in there.
Let me just take a wild guess - Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel, right?
Wonder Woman no. Her character was very well developed and engaging. Captain Marvel definitely. Just insanely overpowered and not well directed. That’s the main problem with Rey, of course, not so much the character herself as much as the piss-poor writing and direction by Johnson.
That’s nonsense, of course. What Johnson was attempting to do was expand the inherent Star Wars concept of a ‘chosen few’ into the actual reality that rebellions and power aren’t inherent in a few but, rather, in the hands of many, many people moving in concert.
You don’t know over evil empires with one person making a kill run. You knock them over when large parts of a population realize their own inherent power.
Yes, it’s antithetical to what Star Wars has presented in the past. On the other hand, it’s a hell of a lot more grown up and mature. And trying to get that out there is one of the better moments we’ve gotten out of the new movies.
Seriously, depending on the day the fan boys are either complaining that The Force Awakens is TOO similar to Episode IV or that The Last Jedi isn’t ‘what Star Wars is all about’.
Regarding Rey and how well she did against Kylo Ren, I always interpreted that as revealing more about how much Kylo was lacking rather than how powerful Rey is. My guess is that Kylo Ren would probably lose a duel with any of the major Jedi or Sith from episodes I-VI, and that it wouldn’t even be close except maybe against old Obi-Wan or Luke from ANH. Even Finn managed to land a glancing blow on him. My guess is he’d probably be an even match against one of the Jedi mooks that Palpatine took out in episode III when the Jedi went to arrest him.
As for episode IX, I’m hoping that they finish things off well but I’m expecting to be disappointed. I was really disappointed by episode VIII, and while IX seems to be going in a different direction, it doesn’t seem like it’s a better one. One major issue I have is with the teasing that Palpatine might be back. IMHO in the world of Star Wars dead is dead other than force ghosts. If Palpatine can come back why not Vader, Obi-Wan, Mace Windu, Luke, or any one else you could think of that might be “cool” to bring back. And yes, I’m also disappointed at Darth Maul having not really been dead as of the end of episode I.
You won’t find this fan complaining about The Force Awakens being too similar to Episode IV. I thought that was one of the things that made it good. I will, however, say that I’m one of the fan boys who complains about The Last Jedi not being what Star Wars is about.
No, that’s not accurate at all. Longtime, hardcore fans of Star Wars are not complaining TFA is too similar, that would be people who are casual fans who just realize that the movie is an intentional soft reboot. The hardcore fans complain about TLJ and rightly so, but casual fans do as well. It’s a bad movie. Badly scripted, badly directed and poorly paced. The dialogue is nonsensical inanity and it basically ignores everything that happened before it, not just in TFA but the whole saga. There are beautiful SFX sequences in the movie and some of the fights are well done, but as a story, it fails hard.
This hardcore fan (ever since seeing ROTJ in the theater as a kid) loved TLJ and thought it was the best of the series since ESB. Why not just speak for yourself? There’s no consensus among fans, whether casual or long time.
Yeah this authoritative tone of declaring how bad TLJ was is ridiculous. Not everyone agrees, so maybe speak more about your opinion rather than what is, since you only speak for yourself.
I saw TLJ and really liked it. Then I heard all of the complaints and went my second time trying to be more critical, but nope, I still really liked it.
Sorry. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but that is all it is. Trying to act like you speak for everyone is pretty off putting to be honest.
I’d certainly be considered a hard core fan. I was ten years old when the first movie came out - go 1977! - and have seen them too many times to count as well as read the books, seen the shows, done the cons and suchlike.
But anytime ANYone speaks authoritatively about ‘the fans’ I know they’re speaking nonsense. The Star Wars fanbase is wide and diverse and capable of liking and disliking many things - some at the same time - and flying off in all directions.
I get it. You didn’t like TLJ. You’ve made that plain before. But to assume that all hardcore fans do so - instead of just like-minded people on the Internet - is just silly.
Me, for instance. As I said, Johnson attempted to do something that the movies desperately needed: something different in terms of story and pacing. Also something very political in trying to restate the underlying premise of what the force should be. I find all of that to be a good thing. What I would find bad is believing that something should be the same or always punch the same buttons.
As far as TFA goes, I also don’t really agree that it was either a soft reboot or a copy of SW. People making that argument should really learn more about narrative structure and storybuilding and realize that the role it had to play - part one of a three act play set in a specific milieu - is going to have specific features and story beats. If it hadn’t - and there are ways not to do that but Abrams isn’t really a risk-taking creator - we’d be listening to people complain that is WASN’T enough like SW.
Luke had years to develop that. ESB takes place years after Star Wars, (YES ITS STAR WARS! No New Hope shit!)
And that is The last Jedis greatest failing. It takes place pretty much immediatly after TFA and plays like a very expensive and pretty TV episode. Character-wise almost everyone spins their wheels. I still have no idea what The First Order is. Very little about Po, and so on and so on.
Im not saying TLJ is bad…but by the end, I just didn’t feel anymore engaged in the overall story then I did in the beginning.
I’m thinking Rise of Skywalker takes place in real time but I dread what could possibly lead them…what macguffin could have them return to that Endor moon. Maybe they need Kyber crystals?
I like both the Force Awakens and the Last Jedi. I like how they redirect the story from the old characters to the new characters. I like how the Force is portrayed. I like the pacing. I like the action. For me, Star Wars is not about the fiddly details, it’s about how it makes me feel when I watch. I come away from watching the movies thinking, “yes, I’m glad I watched that again”. I’m sorry that not everyone has that.
I don’t care about Mary Sue arguments for characters I empathize with. An author’s wish fulfillment can fulfill my wishes too.
You can like a movie and it can still be objectively bad. There are objective criteria in movie-making. Failing to meet those doesn’t make it a movie no one will like, but it does make it poorly made. Pacing is a thing. Maintaining tension is a thing. Internal consistency in a story is a thing. TLJ fails at all three on an objective level. That doesn’t mean no one will like it, it means the director/writer (same guy in this case) didn’t do as good a job as he should have at fundamental things.