These are your opinions, not objective facts. It’s extremely obnoxious and condescending to declare your opinion on a movie to be objective fact.
If you say so.
Thanks! Glad to settle this. It’s okay to have different opinions on Star Wars movies, and there’s no objective answer to their quality and enjoyability as movies.
He’s not the only one that says so.
That must mean he’s right then. Glad that’s settled.
And the great thing is that if I’m right, it means your opinion is perfectly valid! And so is mine, and so is every one else’s.
Can you give me the metrics for “pacing”? Is there a “tension maintenance” scale, and if so, is it linear or logarithmic? Is the statistical spread of “internal consistency” best measured by σ, or a median measure?
Cool.
There was almost nothing about Rey that shows her weaknesses. In fact, many of the other characters in the same movies lack development.
For Luke, that was only one battle. You obviously missed the next two movies, not to mention the recent ones!
About your last point, I’m not sure about Wonder Woman or Captain Marvel, but I’m referring to cardboard cutout characters in movies that focus heavily on spectacle. In contrast, there are characters like Ripley and the crew of Alien, Christopher Reeves’ Superman and the fantastic scene where he flies with Margot Kidder’s Lois Lane, and so on.
So you missed her looking at that older scavenger woman (i.e. her probable future), the prickly way she didn’t want Finn’s physical help, the way she had to fight her own fantasies of parental reunion just to leave Jakku…all of that in the first movie? Never mind all that mirror and Dark Side stuff in the second…
No, *you *“obviously” seem to have missed that the second part of my example was, in fact, from the second movie. Still only after that *one *lesson on the Falcon.
So, you say Ripley’s more than a cardboard cutout - tell me, what does she like to do in her spare time? I know what Rey does…
Did nothing for me, sorry. “Can you read my mind” is just so much 70s cheese. Superman and Lois are together in that film because they’re together in the comics, not because of any believable chemistry there. Don’t get me wrong, I like Reeve’s Superman, but his relationship with Lois never worked for me, even as a kid.
This 3000.
Lana always worked better for me.
By the way…I just realized that “Lois Lane, Superman’s Girlfriend” and “Jimmy Olsen, Superman’s Best Friend”…are titled from the delusions of said characters.
Man, bring those series back as Vertigo titles cause that’s come surreal shit to give two delusional people their own 100+ comic-book run.
Yes! And not *just *because I prefer Annette Toole over Margot Kidder.
Very light attempts in showing Rey’s vulnerable side, in contrast to the manner by which Luke’s character was shaped. In fact, Luke remains vulnerable even in the new movies.
Spare time? That’s your idea of character development? No wonder you are still enchanted by this Mary Sue.
As for what you see as “cheesy,” I’m not surprised, especially your view that it is merely meant to show chemistry between the two.
Well, you may need everything in 30 ft high blinking neon letters shouting “**VULNERABLE CHARACTER HERE **⬂”.
Some of the rest of us, we grok subtlety.
What, whining and staring at suns?
…and he had a whole trilogy to get there.
Well, yes. Showing what someone’s life outside work/adventure is like, especially their internal life, is very much my idea of character development.
Are you saying it’s not?
Repeating it doesn’t make it true.
Yes, the writing is completely fucking cheesy. But hey, go right on thinking it’s “fantastic”, de gustibus and all that.
No, that’s not needed. They have to learn to develop characters, and we’re not seeing that in this Mary Sue.
What you gave isn’t subtlety but over-reaching. If you want an example of a better-developed character, consider what you keep insisting is a “Marty Sue,” with besides whining and staring at suns, having limbs cut off. Apparently, that’s just one of many things you conveniently forgot.
Finally, it’s cheesy because you keep looking for Mary Sues. Anything sentimental, vulnerable, or even banal you avoid. That includes not just a scene involving Superman and Lois that develops throughout the movie, but even the truckers of Alien.
Lots of spectacle involving Mary Sues, sprinkled with bits of the human: that’s what you want. So much for your claims that you despise what’s cheesy. Apparently, you feed on such.
Apparently it is, since…
I’m not the only one seeing that characterisation, so it’s exactly enough reaching, it seems.
I don’t think Luke is a Marty Stu. I think if you think Rey is a Mary Sue, then you have to acknowledge Luke is a Marty Stu to avoid hypocrisy.
…which happens right at the end of the second movie.
By which time, equivalently, Rey has also had some trauma.
What the everliving fuck are you on about? I haven’t mentioned *anything *about Mary Sues in connection with Superman.
It’s cheesy because the writing is cheesy. “Can you read my mind?” is just the most egregious example.
*Cloying fake *sentiment, I avoid. Yes, that would be banal. Banality is always negative, IMO, so there’s no shame in avoiding it. Did you perhaps mean “mundane” instead?
I’ve been quite explicit that her vulnerability is one of the characteristics I recognize (and appreciate) about Rey. So clearly I’m not avoiding that.
“Develops” the way a train wreck develops, because it’s clearly on rails…
I haven’t said anything negative about Alien at all. Your projection is showing. I pointed out why I consider Rey a “character” and asked if you could apply that same criterion to someone you consider a “character” (which you absolutely failed to do, I noticed) .
Where have I lauded spectacle in this thread, please, that you can so confidently claim it’s what I want?
I readily own to wanting my (human) characters to have human characteristics.
You don’t?
Humanity isn’t cheesy. Stilted 70s dialogue is cheesy.
You’re a much better projectionist than you are a mind reader, is all I’ll say.
Can we not bring poltics and culture wars into it? TFA and TLJ are lousy films on their own (lack of) merits, withoit bringing in nonsence about social justice warriors and PC’ness in.
Trauma. LOL.
Rey was tortured by both Ren and Snoke, IIRC. Seems like that would be traumatic to me.
What a deeply insightful and convincing response…
… you utterly failed to make, there.
And lack of response to the rest of my post duly noted.