Okay, a friend of mine decided to dust off Starcraft for the hell of it, and as it turns out, I’m a lot better than my friend is.
His problem is, IMHO, that he insists on playing Terran. They got the short end of a lot of things, not the least of which being their detector unit (science vessal) being relatively high up on the build chain, and expensive to boot. Their anti-air isn’t bad, but since I prefer playing zerg and protoss (I usually pick “random” for multi-player games, though), I don’t really know how to help him.
So, in short, what’s a good strategy for Terran’s anti-air? Goliaths with extended range missles (playing Brood War here, btw)? Valkyries? A ton of wraiths (my favorite strategy)?
I know there used to be some good strat guides out there, but the ones I’ve been finding have been highly unsatisfying. One says to go straight to the starport and skip building siege tanks! Can you say zergling/zealot rush, boys and girls?
Oh, and if it helps any, here’s a summary of what happened last night.
Terran vs. Terran
He went all ground, amassing a not-so-small army of siege tanks, building damn near no anti-air units. (On a sidenote, he also had few detectors while I already had a nuke and a ghost ready to go.) He plopped them down in a field while I was building battlecruisers. Eventually, I overran him with, say, a half dozen battlecruisers with a science vessal for detector support.
Terran (him) vs. Protoss
Island map, fwiw. He had a couple decent sized groups of wraiths, but I did a good job of killing his expansion bases before they got started so he was pretty heavily outresouced. Two groups of troops (a carrier/observer/arbiter group and a scout/observer/arbiter group annihilated them without ground support, and made short work of his wraiths. (Note: He had no science vessals, so he would’ve had no way of killing my observer.)
Terran (him) vs. Zerg
Though I harassed him early with lurkers and zerglings (which I used to keep his expansion bases in check), it was a group of, a half dozen guardians and an overlord and a group of 16 mutalisks that razed his bases more or less single-handedly.
Y’know, I forgot about lockdown. I’ll recommend it to him, though I don’t know if he’ll be able to produce enough valkyries to properly coordinate a proper defense.
As for the valkyries, you would advocate them over the wraiths? Or is a mixed group best? I ususally use wraiths for my air defense, going straight for the detector units first. But then, I suck at multi-player.
I’m not at all even remotely experienced at Starcraft…I’ve only just recently played it for the first time, but I like using Terrans. I’ve found that my favorite method is to build insane amounts of Goliaths as soon as possible and focus on getting them upgraded fully as soon as possible. Then I leave them around for defense. A handful of them seem to be able to decimate a lot of air stuff quickly. Just have to pay attention and make sure they all shoot at the same target, heh…but with the upgrades and stuff, they’re really nice, especially against air. I don’t use tanks much because they get picked off quickly (stuff running up to them and hitting, or flying things).
It’s been a long time since I’ve played Starcraft, but I used to be good at it. I also played Terrans more than any other race(my favourite). Here’s my opinions:
Can we say Lockdown? Combined Comsat sweeps to help in targeting, then use the Shift key to get a group of Ghosts to launch a half dozen near simultaneous Lockdowns. After that, it becomes a turkey shoot. Another approach is a large army of Wraiths, mineral for mineral, Wraiths beat out Cruisers relatively well. Also, Terran vs Terran, Wraiths dominate. With cloaking and being able to stack to attack a single target, mass Wraiths beats every other Terran strategy. Siege Tanks are a problem when going Wraiths, but it is possible to hold them off while rushing to Wraiths. After that, the other player is doomed, no ifs and or buts.
The key(imho) for Terran vs Protoss on islands is early expansion on the Terrans part. Float a command center to the next nearest island. The Terrans have to expand early and aggresively to have a chance, especially vs Corsairs. Your friend needs to take advantage of floating Command Centers, and build a few bunkers near each expansion, while building up his airforce. Late game, BattleCruisers with Science Vessel support are very powerfull(Irradiate on Templars, EMP on any air units).
All I can say here is-Irradiate. A few Science Vessels and every air unit would have been dead very quickly. Versus Zerg air, Irradiate is the #1 killer, especially Mutalisks. Use Marines to mop up, and to prevent Scourge from hitting the Science Vessels. Versus Zerg, Marines+Science Vessels+Siege Tanks is a almost impossible to stop combo.
As for a general Terran anti air strategy, it can be summed up in one word-Marines. Marines provide excellent ground defense, and with the right support units, can decimate any airforce(Corsairs probably being the biggest threat if part of an enemy airforce). Against Zerg, use Science Vessels+Marines, and you can crush them easily, ground and air.
Protoss is harder, the best solution is Marines+Ghosts. Lockdown all the big ticket items(Carriers, Arbiters), then stim and gun them down. Not to say Goliaths aren’t useless, but Marines are overall superior, and save gas that can be used to build Ghosts. This reminds me of a motto we used to have regarding Terrans: MMM=Make More Marines.
Take that to heart, and you can win many games(especially verus the Zerg).
The only thing Valkyries are good for is Overlord hunting… And Science Vessels are better for that. You’re not supposed to rely on science vessels for detection, although once you get rolling, they’re useful for that, if you have them. For detection, you use your Comsat Station. All Command Centers should have an add-on attached (they’re cheap), and you should have at least two Comsats before worrying about nukes, with at least one of them on a hotkey for emergency use. Against Protoss, he should assume that you have at least one observer in each attack group (and probably an Arbiter, if tech is high enough), and scan each attack group as a matter of routine. Then, of course, kill the Observers first, and everything else is dead.
That won’t work too well against Zerg, though, because any decent Zerg air commander will put a half-dozen or so Overlords per group, and they also take longer to kill than Observers. For defending your base, use Marine/Ghost Bunkers to hold off the Mutalisks, and send Wraiths or Science Vessels after the Guardians. Remember, Mutalisks are small, so they only take half damage from explosive attacks (missiles, Hydralisk spines, and Dragoon disruptors). If your air forces meet Mutalisks in the middle of nowhere, just run. The Mutalisks can just about keep up, but they’d have to leave the slower Overlords behind, leaving them helpless against cloaked Wraiths.
On island maps, the terran player is almost guaranteed to win, if he knows what he’s doing. Let everyone else climb the tech tree to their air unit of choice… Meanwhile, you’ve got a Barracks on every island, churning out Marines that your opponent never bothered to defend against.
Terrans have excellent air support in Goliaths. A group of 12 fully upgraded Goliaths will easily handle most air attacks…granted the commander knows not to let them randomly fire into the incoming swarm of ships.
I have to agree with Xavalisis on the fact that Irradiate decimates the Zerg. I once beat a friend of mine after he destroyed my main base by taking two small, mineral rich islands, lining them with towers and proceeding to get a bunch of Science Vessels w/ Irradiate (which had already been researched) and slowly but steadily destroy his overlords/air forces. Eventually I got nukes and blew his base to heck, then mopped up with wraiths. It was one of my greatest come-back victories in Starcraft. And Terrans main detector isnt Science Vessels, it’s the Com-Sat Station. My best advice is to assign it to hot-key 0, that way it’s ready at a moment’s notice.
I think with experienced players it’s meant to be this way… Terrans beat Zerg, Protoss beats Terrans and Zerg…well, Zerg kinda lose to Protoss too, unless Protoss don’t go for air and let the Zerg get up to Adrenal gland-ed Zerglings…those thing tear Protoss ground troops to shreds.
I have noticed that %99.9 of all Protoss opponents follow a strategy of just amassing huge numbers of Carriers. Is this because their ground troops suck or something? I realize Dragoons are a pain to maneuver, but there should be some more diversity.
Now, with Terran, there are a few kajillion strategies to use. In Terran vs. Protoss games, I think that the Terran should concern himself with having sufficient Carrier defense. Since Carriers take up so much supplies, they tend to be the bulk of the enemy’s force. Knock them out and you’re free to roll in some tanks to take out photon cannons and then destroy everything. The best tips for destroying Carriers:
Nukes. While using a “Normandy Beach” tactic(Load up as many shuttles as humanly possible with marines, firebats, and medics and just keep unloading them in the enemy base), I found that the enemy had left their entire air fleet- Carriers, Scouts, and Corsairs- idly floating by the base entrance. I launched a nuke into the center of this mess, and I assume he was occupied elsewhere, because he didn’t try to move these guys away, and his entire airforce vanished. When being assaulted, it might not help as much, but you could launch a nuke a bit behind your defenders and lure the Carriers in as a trap.
Battlecruisers. On first glance, you might say that BCs would be utterly smited by Carriers. Far from it. There are several advantages.
First off- The Yamato gun. It may be designed for hitting buildings, but a very smooth tactic that I love to do is to have each BC Yamato an individual Carrier. This will pretty much fry their shields, and leave them all open for destruction.
Also, while non-upgraded BCs are crap, if you’ve fully upgraded them, they are unstoppable. The superior armor makes the repeated poundings from interceptors reduced to mere pangs of 1 damage apiece, and the superpowerful lasers more than make up for their godawful slow rate of fire.
Finally, and most important: You can repair BCs, even in combat. During an allied game of The Hunters, me and my comrades quickly took the center island. I formed this island into a Terran Repair Center, by building several bunkers and missile turrets, shuttling the SVCs into the bunkers, and bringing 'em out when BCs were ready to be fixed up. This way, instead of having to lug BCs back to central base to get them fixed while the opponent launches a counter-attack, you can send SCVs to the scene of the battle. (This is also great for land assaults involving goliaths and tanks)
Sci Vessels. In addition to the Lockdown ability, they also have the Protoss’s worst nightmare- EMP. Launch an EMP into the center most BC in a group and almost all of them will instantly lose their shields, and thus leaving them open for a kill. Also, Sci Vessels help get rid of those pesky Observers, and if there are Arbiters, render them useless.
Valkyries. My god. Fully-upgraded valkyries can tear a Carrier into shreds in five seconds flat.
Scanner Sweeps. These make up for the lack of good observers that plagues the Terrans. If you have extra money, buy Command Centers just for the Radar Stations. What makes these superior to Observers and Overlords is that you never have to lug them along into combat, and the only way for the enemy to kill them is to get in your base. Not to mention it gives a definate edge in the game because you can detect the enemy’s starting position long before they find you(Just check all the starting points on the map).
Missile Turrets. They’re much easier to set up than Spore Colonies and Photon Cannons because you don’t need Creep/Pylons. They do suffer from a lack of ground defense, but just build a bunker right next to it and you’ve got a miniature fort ready to hinder any air attacks.
When it comes to Zerg Attacks, remember that Mutalisks have shots that richochet off one target and can hit another. This can spell major trouble for Protoss who have to huddle around pylons, but Terrans can expand to have buildings as far away as possible and render the richochet useless. Furthermore, the standard Terran ground unit(Marine) is very useful aginst Gaurdians- Just remember to have twice as many marines than gaurdians and they won’t be able to kill you all. (Medics are also great for this)
Look, Protoss carriers are ultra-cool. I always have to almost physically restrain myself to not buy carriers. They can be very scary, with the noise and the zooming around and the hey Lady! But they are a total waste of resources. The are ultra-vulnerable to lockdown and EMP. The only reason new players like them is that units have to be told specifically to attack the blimp, not the fighters. Yes, you have to micromanage to take out carriers, but if you do he is toast. The blimp pops in about 3 seconds.
Against newbies, blimps are a terror weapon. Against anyone experienced and you might as well toss your money down the drain.
And the best terran air defense is missile turrets and marine bunkers mixed together. Oh, maybe have some goliaths waiting if he lurks out of range, but generally anti-air is always stronger than air, dollar for dollar.
Oh, I almost forgot. Everyone knows that the ultimate Protoss terror weapon is not the Carrier but the Reaver! Oh…yeah…just pop a few Reavers down with a little air cover, and just wear your fingers our buying Scarabs as the whole enemy base crumbles to powder in seconds. And even if he’s got some air units that the Reavers can’t touch, so what? He’s gonna get chewed up before he can kill them all. Feel the love, Baby…
Gah! Remind me not to play against you guys. You know, the funny thing about the battles between my friend and I (besides the fact that we both suck) is that we both prefer to go ground. I just go air because, hey, it’s easier to blow up his masses of siege tanks that way.
Anyway, thanks for all the tips. I did have one question, though, concerning the following:
By “simultaneous Lockdowns” are we talking about a bunch of individually targetted lockdowns, or is it possible to tell them to lock down a group of enemies in an arrangement similar to the generic “attack whomever you want” attack command?
I’m a zerg man, if i can make it through the first couple of minutes without being decimated, you will not stop the swarm! My problems recently is i have been using Random race as my start, and i am less experianced with protoss and humans. i can’t do human air for the life of me, i build Valkaries, Wraiths, Battlecruisers, and goliaths, and still get pounded, i have science vessels up the whazoo, with some of the highest kill numbers in the game. With protoss, i have moved to Dark Archons Mind Controlling the opponents big air attackers, with carriers being used as towers beneath arbiters, but above cannons. This makes the arbiters target number one, i usually have him sitting over a sheild generator, but they still have a too high attrition rate for my taste. But mind control is great, especially if you can build a whole second races tech line, you get an extra 200 space!
But don’t mind me, i really suck compared to some of the horrors i’ve seen on battlenet
He is talking about cloning. You select all your ghosts and tell them all to lockdown a carrier. Then you deselect a ghost using shift and tell all your ghosts to lockdown a different carrier. After repeating this alot you get every ghost with a different target.
Use two yamatos at the same time and the carriers die:)
I’ve seen this work a few times, but any decent player scouts her island to make sure that that doesen’t work. You are better off building a second command center first and floating off your first barracks to a second base.
Never use Valkaries. They don’t fire if almost anything that uses alot of sprites in its weapons attacks it. Send 12 scouts vs 12 valkaries and the scouts probably have full shields by the end.
For anti-air Marines only get killed by guardians. Goliaths kill everything air, but they have a little trouble with mutalisks. The only thing you really have to worry about with marines are templar(which can kill about 50 marines with 1 psi storm) dragoons(which die if you have tanks) and dark templar if you don’t have detection. Against zerg they only can be killed by large numbers of lurkers and guardians, mutalisk/zerglings, or ultras/zerglings.
Of course the best way to defend from air is to keep on attacking so your opponent cannot build any air units:)
I once watched my carrier-happy friend get 15 carriers smoked by four science vessels with EMP and a single zerg defiler with plague. Hydralisks rolled in and killed the 1-hit point carriers in a matter of seconds. Terrans and zerg complement each other very nicely against protoss.
EMP can be very successful even in a losing battle. If the 'Toss units can be stripped of their shields quickly, the carriers take irreparable damage which makes them much easier to kill the next time around.
Terran units also have the wonderful ability to lift off when zealots, zerglings, reavers, or ultralisks come calling unaided. And, once you’re maxed out on the tech-tree, engineering facilities make excellent kamikazes as they draw the AA fire of enemy bases.
I just gotta say that I’m generally impressed by the strategies here.
The standard cliche for terran: they’re easiest to learn, and hardest to master. Everything depends on so much micro with them.
Anti-air vs zerg: marines rock vs mutas. Hands down. (keep upgrading them) By the time he comes out with his guards, if you have a few science vessels with irradiate then you’re still sitting pretty.
Anti-air vs. protoss: if his fleet is small, use your com-sat to identify his observer, then send your cloaked wraiths in and wash him out. Large fleets require sci-vessel EMP and gollies or marines with wraith support. (d-matrixed, stimmed rines work wonders… but that can take a lot of micro.) Also note that marines should not concentrate fire on the blimp, but should stim and shoot down all the interceptors (they do so pretty quickly if upgraded).
And good heavens, where and when do y’all play? Any interest in gathering in, say, channel StraightDope for a couple of games this weekend?
Can you say zergling/zealot rush, boys and girls?