I would argue that most of them do just that. Although the songs often (but not always) end with the narrator in prison, the lament is usually that being in prison really sucks, and not that the narrator did a terrible thing by taking someone’s life.
I fail to see the distinction. A wife is always going to be a woman. How a person treats the individual currently in that role in relation to himself is informed, not by who that other person is, but how he expects women in general to conform to that role. The attitude in play, here, is, “Any woman I marry, must be faithful to me. If she is not, I will kill her.” That’s an attitude about all women. The identity of the specific woman filling that role in the protagonist’s life is immaterial: any woman who matched his set of criteria would be treated the same.
The only citation provided on the issue thus far claims that what is “often” is an admonishment not to do that kind of thing. I’d like some evidence that “most” are something else.
Most men of this sort, however wicked to their wives, will defend their mothers, sisters, cousins, and even perhaps ex-wives or maybe even ex-girlfriends from other men. If he complains of other men beating women, he’s not a misogynist, he’s a hypocrite.
Not sure how to provide evidence of that, other than on a case-by-case basis. My conclusion is driven by my own experience listening to that genre of music, and partially dependent on my own interpretations of the songs I’ve heard.
As an example, I’d submit Johnny Cash’s “Cocaine Blues.” In the last stanza, the narrator laments that he “can’t forget the day he shot that bad bitch down,” followed by an admonishment to his audience, not to treat the women in their lives better, but to avoid drugs and alcohol. The tone of the song clearly indicates that killing her was justified, but wasn’t worth spending the rest of your life in prison.
So, that whole “evidence” thing is just something that applies to other people? All right. This still doesn’t refute my argument. Do “men of this sort” defend their female relations out of respect and love for the relation, or because someone is damaging something they perceive as belonging to themselves? I would expect, for example, that even the most violent wife-beater would react violently to someone else punching their wife, even if he does it himself fortnightly. Is his reaction driven by respect for and devotion to his (regularly beaten) wife? Or is it a form of territoriality, triggered by seeing a possible competitor touching his property?
It’s also worth noting that a common feature of most bigots is an ability to separate the targets of their bigotry into “good X” and “bad X.” A dedicated woman hater might still worship the ground his mother walks on, because his mother “isn’t like other women.” The existence of an exception to their general antipathy is not, of itself, evidence against their antipathy.
We only got most of that stuff towards the end of/after Apartheid. Like, women weren’t allowed to have bank accounts without the husband signing off fairly far into the 80s, IIRC. It was quite a to-do to keep your maiden name, as well.
No hardcore or even most softcore porn in SA (just 1 mag with topless shots with - get this - stars on the nipples) until the 90s (but you could go to Sun City to see porn because that was in “another country”) . No gambling - except horse racing - unless you were in one of the “homelands” which had casinos (Sun City again)
And you don’t want to know about local “Rock” music in the 70s shudder
Hell,** the government only allowed TV in 1976**. Which, according to Max’s uncle, might then have been a contributing factor to the breakdown of Apartheid - 'cos all the Blacks stopped being so damn polite. That explains it all, it’s so obvious now:
General broadcasting starts 5 January 1976
Soweto Uprising : 16 June 1976
Never mind Mandela, Biko, sanctions, all that crap. It was the tube all along:eek:
…in origin. But in practice, it gets covered in various genres. Johnny Cash and Nick Cave are hardly “folk music” artists.
…and many Rap songs are also set in jail cells. What’s your point?
It doesn’t exactly directly condemn it, either - it’s just ooozing sympathy for the title character. No lament there for the dead woman at all.
But this is irrelevant. Murder ballads are only one subgenre that have elements of the misogyny I mentioned. There’s lots of other stuff too.
And I never said there wasn’t.
…well, if you define “love” as “fucking”…
Rock is misogynistic. It’s not just or always misogynistic, but it (as a genre and as a culture) certainly is. From the lyrics (Beatles, anyone?) to the behaviour (groupies treated like shit)
No, I’m not claiming that. If the rock songs I’m talking about were as clinical in their tone as a coroner’s report, it wouldn’t be misogynistic. But they’re not, so it is.
I disagree. A culture that believes women can/should be punished for wrongdoing with death is a misogynistic one. It’s *exactly *the same as ME honour killings, FFS.
It doesn’t matter that it is a specific woman you’re angry with. That anger justifies even thinking of killing at all, is where things cross over into the miso- zone.
I haven’t heard that song in a long time, and do not recall it clearly, but maybe his admonishment against drugs is also about the fact that some people kill more easily under their influence? Did he actually say killing the bitch is good, but drugs are bad?
As an alternative, “shot that bad bitch down” could also refer to having a shot of cocaine. I’ve heard people talk like that.
After studying up on misogyny I see that there are multiple theories of what misogyny is. I’ll accept that statement as one of the theories. I note, however, that it is feminist activists who come up with these multiple theories and not disinterested sociologists. I’ve heard from one feminist lesbian that she wants all men to die. If any particular theory crosses the line into misandry, I think you’d see the possible problem (not arguing that any of these theories do, particularly.)
I would also point out that an exception MIGHT not be evidence against their misogyny, depending on how many women it covers and for what reason. What is it with “antipathy?” Is there no difference between not caring and hating? None of the definitions I saw included antipathy.
Its not that evidence only applies to other people–it might not be needed if a) my argument is agreed with b) others clearly rebut to show it is wrong. if you asked for it, I’d either concede it is unsupported, fetch the evidence, or explain why it is true and the evidence cannot be fetched.
Then America’s capital punishment is both misogynyst and and misandrist. I’m not buying this women-can’t-be-punished angle. Wrongdoing deserves punishment, and if it is vigilantism, it is the vigilantism that is wrong in this scenario. If being justifiably angry at a specific woman for wrongdoing while having no ill will toward any other is misogyny, then misogyny is no more than a tool to hold women to a lesser standard of behavior than men and being anti-misogyny becomes pro-misandry. (Believing men should be punished for wrong but women shouldn’t.)
Society is justifiably angry at Susan Smith (killed her children) and is not misogynistic for so doing.
A lack of condemnation is not approval. A song about a wrongly convicted man is just that, and nothing more. If that’s what you want to write about, how do you achieve it if you must convert the song into an anti-murder song?
Now all rock is about is fucking. Yeah right. In your fantasy world. of course some are, though not as crude in your description. The fact that you chose the word “fuck” over “sex” or love-making reveals that you just hate rock and roll.
In your very narrow ill-advised rumor believing opinion.
One song is misogynistic, so all are? How many Beatles songs AREN’T, in comparison? And now I’d like some evidence of rock and rollers killing and beating groupies, in general, and not just one isolated case. You listen too much to rumors. I bet you think “Led Zeppelin” stuffed a mudshark up a girl’s vagina, don’t you? Nobody in the band did that. At any rate, she didn’t complain and appeared to like it.
You seem to overlook the fact that with groupies they are literally throwing themsleves at the stars. So you oblige them. Some want to go with you on the whole tour. Can’t be done, sorry honey, you have to stay. No misogyny there, though maybe some lack of sex morals.
While I am no “star” I still have entertained many a groupie, and I was decent to them all, outside of telling them its time to go home.
However I know nothing about local rock music in south africa. If that is your reference, you should qualify your statement, rather than all rock in general. And you shouldn’t think everything you read is true.
Are capital punishments dished out in an emotional state? And is there even a true equivalence between the State and an individual as an actor, in this sense?
I don’t think you get it - it’s not about the fact that a woman was killed, it’s about why the man thought that was an appropriate response - what was going through his head to make him think honour killing was OK, and what that says about his cultural underpinnings. Even if the man is just a character, because we’re evaluating text.
Because any “women-can’t-be-punished angle” exists only in your head.
It’s not that, it’s about a mindset that treats the woman as the man’s property and his “honour” as paramount, which is all a jealous rage is, at heart. Its the nature of the punishment and the severity of its application that’s at issue here.
Aaah, but what “wrongdoing” are we talking about here? Infidelity is only a capital crime if you have a fucked-up sense of the value of a human life.
And if there are overwhelmingly more cases of the capital punishment being applied (or even just threatened) lopsidedly to the different sexes (as is the case in music lyrics - I’d hazard the ratio’s probably 10-1 for “I shot my woman down” vs “I shot my man down”) then *that *points to a fundamentally sexist and negative structure at heart. And a system that is negative to women is…?
Honor killings are a mindset that a person agrees to when they are calm and “rational.” Many people in fits of anger do things that they themselves believe to be irrational when they are calm. Remorse for killing your wife for cheating shows a lack of misogyny. Sticking by your guns that it is ok when you’re calm is misogyny.
But the system lopsidedly applies capital punishment to men, not women. In America anyway.
Well we will get nowhere as long as you keep claiming your opinion of what “most” music is. Please provide proof that rock and roll is MOSTLY about “fucking” and not love, and unjustly praises killings/beatings of women.
*Some people say the world has had enough of silly love songs/
I look around me and I see it isn’t so/
Some people wanna fill the world with silly love songs/
And what’s wrong with that? I’d like to know/
Cause here I go again–
Let’s limit it to seventies rock music to begin with.
Then let’s agree on America’s ten most popular bands–meaning popular in America, currently performing in the seventies, but not necessarily with an American Origin. We could determine this by record sales and concert attendance.
Then let’s look at the songs individually.
Of course I am open to suggestions for changing the parameters, as long as some workable parameters are set. Suggestions? anyone willing to do so?
Cooperating with what willing women want is now misogyny? Am I getting this straight? I thought the feminists complain of men dictating their sexuality?
You painted a whole genre of music with a broad brush as misogynistic. Now you claim you like it, except for that misogynistic part, but you said the whole thing, or mostly the whole thing. Your record collection must be pretty small.
Please provide some evidence for mistreatment of groupies.
I’d like you to note, as well, that whether sex is “fucking” or “love-making” is entirely subjective, or do you have an objective standard to suggest? I suggest it is “fucking” to those who disapprove and “love-making” to those who don’t.
As to my own ox–I’m probably just in a better position than you to know what really goes on as opposed to what people clamor about. But instead of appealing to my own authority, I pointed to an undeniable expert on the subject of music, Paul McCartney, and his take on the state of music in the 70’s, in Silly Love Songs. But of course you’ll claim he’s a misogynist because JOHN LENNON wrote Run For Your Life.
:rolleyes: Oh, come off it. You don’t need to be any kind of misogynist to understand that “love-making” is something a woman does while a man is fucking her.
But probably not Penny Lane, huh, since the girl with the poppies on a tray is just a nurse and not a doctor, and is therefore “misogynistic.”
This is just silliness. Have your opinion. You’ll neither: cite, accept my proposed test, nor suggest modifications to my test nor propose your own idea of a test.
In From Four Until Late Robert Johnson writes “a woman is like a dresser, some many rummaging around its drawers” which is close as I can think of misogynistic sentiment. However, a misogynist in the sense of hating women so much as to not to want any contact is not going to be in a blues song. If you consider a misogynist as someone who devalues women to the point that blowing one away for being unfaithful is okay, you have lots.
The first Led Zep album is heavily blues, (and heavily stolen, true) so it got all the blues riffs. I think that song generalizes the feelings about one woman to all once in a while, but isn’t really about all women.