"The Spanish Vice"

[Polycarp]

I’m a card-carrying liberal (well, the card is my library card, but what the heck!). But I can respect a conservative voting in accordance with what he thinks is right – so long as his intent is not to stifle dissent, force conformity, or remove what I consider are fundamental rights.

I know there are several conservatives on this board who hold similar views, with the two socio-political classifications reversed.

But what I’ve been seeing, repeatedly and across the spectrum, is an absolute hatred of anyone or any views which differ from one’s own.

George W. Bush is not out to convert America into a Fascist dictatorship. He simply has some strong views on what this country ought to be doing that differ greatly from my own – in my opinion, going beyond the pale of what a President ought to be doing, but that’s grist for another thread.

This thread is focused on a deeper problem: the wedges that are being driven between us, largely by ourselves.

There’s a great Heinlein quote, from the novel Friday, which is technically copyright and fairly long, but which has been permitted by the copyright holders for use in arguments such as this one, so I alert the moderators that the length is not a problem under the circumstances.

“It is a bad sign when the people of a country stop identifying themselves with the country and start identifying with a group. A racial group. Or a religion. Or a language. Anything, as long as it isn’t the whole population.”

“A very bad sign. Particularism. It was once considered a Spanish vice but any country can fall sick with it. Dominance of males over females seems to be one of the symptoms.”

“Before a revolution can take place, the population must loose faith in both the police and the courts.”

“… High taxation is important and so is inflation of the currency and the ratio of the productive to those on the public payroll. But that’s old hat; everybody knows that a country is on the skids when its income and outgo get out of balance and stay that way - even though there are always endless attempts to wish it way by legislation. But I started looking for little signs and what some call silly-season symptoms.”

“I want to mention one of the obvious symptoms: Violence. Muggings. Sniping. Arson. Bombing. Terrorism of any sort. Riots of course - but I suspect that little incidents of violence, pecking way at people day after day, damage a culture even more than riots that flare up and then die down. Oh, conscription and slavery and arbitrary compulsion of all sorts and imprisonment without bail and without speedy trial - but those things are obvious; all the histories list them.”

“I think you have missed the most alarming symptom of all. This one I shall tell you. But go back and search for it. Examine it. Sick cultures show a complex of symptoms as you have named . . . But a dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness. Bad manners. Lack of consideration for others in minor matters. A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than a riot.”

“This symptom is especially serious in that an individual displaying it never thinks of it as a sign of ill health but as proof of his/her strength. Look for it. Study it. It is too late to save this culture - this worldwide culture, not just the freak show here in California.”

Lee Hazlewood’s schmaltzy song says something important to me: I am proud to be an American. I don’t think that justifies some of the actions of the last three years – but this is a country that has done great things in the past, and was founded on one of the finest principles there is.

People in these debates have identified as conservatives, as liberals, as gays, as Christians, and God knows what else.

Oddly enough, nobody’s primary focus is on being an American. That’s a big problem.

And if we don’t fix it, it will assuredly destroy us.

Stop gloating, bemoaning, raging, flaming, or whatever the hell else you’re doing, for just a few minutes, and pick up on the idea that Otto’s problems are Bricker’s – and Stoid’s, and faithfool’s, and Sol’s – and mine, and yours.

Because I for one have gotten to the point where I think we need to take stock of what we have, and where we need to go from here – not in the minds of the President, or the DNC, or HRC, or the Christian Coalition, or any other interest group, beneficial or not – but in the consensus of the American people.

And if there isn’t one, we need to build one.

That takes compromise, listening, understanding, sympathy, and a bunch of other words that didn’t get much use in the last six months or so.

But maybe we better find them.

[Liberal]

I don’t understand the problem. Why, exactly, is it a big problem if nobody focuses on America? You mean, the government will fall and be replaced by a government that, to its people, is more likely to ensure its safety and happiness? And that is a bad thing?

[andros]

Yes, it is.

[wonky]

@Polycarp

Oddly enough, nobody’s primary focus is on being an American. That’s a big problem.

But I’m not an American first. I’m a human being first. I’m not sure exactly what comes second, but I don’t think that’s my American-ness either.

I happened to be born here. That doesn’t mean that I have a great deal in common with other people who were born here (though I probably do) or that I have a special bond with them that goes beyond them being human beings, too.

[silenus]

I am an American, and proud of it. Warts and all. Well-spoken, Polycarp. I remember that passage from Friday. I need to make a point of passing it on to my students.

[tomndebb]

the government will fall and be replaced by a government that, to its people, is more likely to ensure its safety and happiness?

This seems to be an extrapolation that is not only not supported by Poly’s remarks, but not supported by history. I can think of no society that fell that did not harm more people than it helped and no revolution that directly improved the lot of the people (although there have been a few revolutions in which conditions improved somewhat for the populace after the terror had finally simmered down, a generation or so later).

If U.S. society needs to be destroyed in order to save it, I suspect that we will have a better chance of accomplishing a genuine goal if we focus on the hoped for result rather than rending the flesh of our neighbors who may disagree with our views of that goal.

[Freyr]

@Polycarp

Because I for one have gotten to the point where I think we need to take stock of what we have, and where we need to go from here – not in the minds of the President, or the DNC, or HRC, or the Christian Coalition, or any other interest group, beneficial or not – but in the consensus of the American people.

And if there isn’t one, we need to build one.

That takes compromise, listening, understanding, sympathy, and a bunch of other words that didn’t get much use in the last six months or so.

But maybe we better find them.

I’m in! I’m tired of the bitching, moaning, gloating and laughing from both sides. While I disagree with many points on the conservative agenda, I respect the opinions of those who hold them. Likewise, I agree with some of the opinions of the far Left, but not all.

The question becomes, where’s our middle ground? What do we agree upon and how do we build that consensus? Can both sides agree to stop yelling at each other and look for what binds us together rather than what sets us apart?

[Miller]

@jsgoddess

But I’m not an American first. I’m a human being first.

Well said.

[Mirasawa]

I think the OP means it’s OK to be biased towards America and American ideals.

Americans should never treat other Americans with opposing views like enemies of the American ideals.

_
_

[Freyr]

@jsgoddess

But I’m not an American first. I’m a human being first. I’m not sure exactly what comes second, but I don’t think that’s my American-ness either.

I happened to be born here. That doesn’t mean that I have a great deal in common with other people who were born here (though I probably do) or that I have a special bond with them that goes beyond them being human beings, too.

As Miller concurred, “well said!”

Yes, I’m an American. But I’m also a human being. Our country comprises a small portion of the total population of this planet and it would be fool hardly to ignore the consequences of our actions on the rest of the planet and its population. For any of our conservative friends reading this, no, I’m not advocating renouncing the sovernienty (sp?) of our country to the UN, or forming a one-world government. But unless we were to suddenly become totally isolationist, we cannot ignore the fact that the actions of our government has consequences beyond our borders. We need to remember we have international neighbors and learn to get along with them.

[The_Flying_Dutchman]

@Polycarp

Oddly enough, nobody’s primary focus is on being an American. That’s a big problem.

And if we don’t fix it, it will assuredly destroy us.

Ya, you just might be stuck in Jesusland. ( I assume everyone knows what I’m talking about.)

[yosemite]

@Freyr

I’m in! I’m tired of the bitching, moaning, gloating and laughing from both sides. While I disagree with many points on the conservative agenda, I respect the opinions of those who hold them. Likewise, I agree with some of the opinions of the far Left, but not all.

I’m in too! I’ve got a few diverse opinions myself. I know that many people who differ from me are still good people. They don’t have horns, for crying out loud.

Oy. Some people need to calm down.

Can both sides agree to stop yelling at each other and look for what binds us together rather than what sets us apart?

Apparently, some can’t. Oy!

I’m with you, though. 100%.

[MsRobyn]

Nitpick: The song was by Lee Greenwood.

Otherwise, beautiful OP.

Robin

[DanBlather]

What complete balderdash. The antebellum south was a model of manners but they kept friggin slaves. The British empire was oh so proper while they went willy nilly all over the globe conquering other countries and robbing them blind.

[Liberal]

Yeah, it really is balderdash. I love Poly as much as anyone does, and he knows that. I’ll be first in line to give him general kudos and huzzahs, but that doesn’t mean that everything he writes is right. You’ve already given counter-examples proving the argument wrong, so continuing to defend it is futile. But even underlying that particular aspect is the aspect I mentioned earlier. What is wrong with these words?

WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness – That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

If a government has so neglected its people that they no longer feel safe and happy, then despite what Andros or Tom says, it is time for that government to disappear. It is lucky for us that our founders were not leftists, I reckon.

[Starving_Artist]

@DanBlather

What complete balderdash. The antebellum south was a model of manners but they kept friggin slaves.

This means nothing in terms of overall society. I’d wager less than three percent of to citizens of the antebellum south owned slaves.

@DanBlather

The British empire was oh so proper while they went willy nilly all over the globe conquering other countries and robbing them blind.

Again, this is the behavior of government, not the general populace, most of whom were polite and, I’m sure, eager to avoid war if possible like most human beings.

Polycarp, here’s another conservative saying “well said.” It is this lack of politeness and consideration for others that is the source of much of my disdain for the effect of liberalism over the last three or four decades. I believe this is in part due to the angry self-righteousness employed by hippies in the sixties, women’s rights activists in the seventies, and the gay rights movement in the eighties and nineties, and which is now being carried on by the anti-war, anti-conservative contingent in the country these days.

Politeness and considerate behavior toward others, I believe, first began to fall out of favor in the sixties, when the counter-culture came into being. Conservatives were (and are) portrayed as being uptight, rigid, and…you know, mannerly. Manners and politeness were regarded as affectations of the “uptight” and “backward” conservative class and therefore, something not worth hanging on to…much less nurturing.

And in my opinion, this lack of manners has been exacerbated by the rise of rap music. Crudeness , profanity, and bad-boy behavior is the hallmark of this type of music, and it encourages this type of behavior among at least some of its fan base.

And conservatives themselves have become angry over this lack of civility and often therefore abandon it themselves. They feel that by trying to cling to these outmoded values of civility they are lone voices crying into the night to no avail, and they feel like “Fuck it, if no one else is gonna be polite, I’m not either.”

So now we have a society where people go out of their way to try to keep you from changing lanes…or worse, merging onto the highway, where serious accidents can occur as a result. People walk by with their nose in the air and say nothing when you hold a door for them. Etc., etc., etc.

So, while I don’t know if this lack of civility portends the end of a society, it certainly makes life within it feel less safe and pleasant, and it accomplishes nothing but to engender ever increasing hostility among the populace.

[Liberal]

@Starving Artist

I’d wager less than three percent of to citizens of the antebellum south owned slaves.

Don’t wager too much:

Slave ownership was relatively widespread. In the first half of the nineteenth century, one-third of all southern white families owned slaves, and a majority of white southern families either owned slaves, had owned them, or expected to own them. These slaveowners were a diverse lot. A few were African American, mulatto, or Native American; one-tenth were women; and more than one in ten worked as artisans, businesspeople, or merchants rather than as farmers or planters. Few led lives of leisure or refinement.

The average slaveowner lived in a log cabin rather than a mansion and was a farmer rather than a planter. The average holding varied between four and six slaves, and most slaveholders possessed no more than five.

http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/database/article_display.cfm?HHID=653

[Starving_Artist]

Hmmm…funny I didn’t know that, exposed as I have been to nearly forty years of (legitimate) criticizing of slavery. And while I don’t know that the author is correct with his facts and figures, I recognize your intelligence and range of knowledge, Liberal, and am therefore content to accept your cite at face value.

Still, I think it’s apples and oranges to try to point to one particular social ill or another and claim that politeness could have played no positive role in a society because those ills existed at the same time. Polycarp’s quotes were not intended to imply that politeness was a panacea for all things bad, but rather that a lack of politeness was an important indicator of decline in society…and while I don’t think it is indicative of a fatal decline, I would agree that it characterizes a less civilized society, and therefore one that is much more open to conflict and fragmentation than one in which politeness is standard.

Regards.

[MysteryFellow63427]

@grienspace

Ya, you just might be stuck in Jesusland. ( I assume everyone knows what I’m talking about.)

No.

[matt]

@DanBlather

What complete balderdash. The antebellum south was a model of manners but they kept friggin slaves. The British empire was oh so proper while they went willy nilly all over the globe conquering other countries and robbing them blind.

Etiquette and manners are not quite the same thing. “Lack of consideration for others in minor matters” is what we’re talking about. The antebellum south and British empire may have dressed for dinner, but in the important ways they were rude as fuck.

@Liberal

What is wrong with these words?

"…that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Nothing is wrong with those words, I agree with them in principle. But often maintenance and repair are better than abolishing and starting over. I presume you put oil in your car?