I was going back to a time when my own opinions make me want to smack myself in the face. I hope you don’t think I was justifying this in any way.
My argument that most are not misogynist concerns rock. I admitted to not knowing blues lyrics well enough (I can’t even understand half of them anyway and am far more interested in the guitar licks) to say one way or the other, and have certainly conceded that claiming its good to murder a woman is misogynist.
For the life of me I can’t understand the Robert Johnson lyric above so I don’t have an opinion. Perhaps you could explain it?
Hmmm yeah a lot of it involves semantics. I maintain that the majority or even a supermajority of rock songs are not misogynist, however. It was the overgeneralistic “rock is a mysogynistic music genre.” I readily admit examples of mysoginist views are easy to find in many kinds of music including rock, just that they are far outweighed by songs that aren’t.
Of course, if we’re going to argue about whether we have a large enough sample to conclude that rock is (largely/mostly/somewhat/overwhelmingly) misogynistic, it’s worth pointing out that there has been nothing but an assertion that rap is misogynistic. It’s an especially odd gap because, other than the name, I’m not sure I see a difference between “bitches” and “groupies”.
Bitches are not necessarily fans.
True, but they are necessarily women who sleep with you because you’re rich and famous — very much like groupies. (At least, that seems to be what most rappers mean —I don’t think they mean prostitutes they’re pimping out.)
No way, friend. We’ve known each other too long for that.
Economically it’s better. But the school still overlooks the projects. I’m not sure how wide drug usuage was back then since I was in school across town. There are a lot of men (such as school repair men) afraid to go into that part of town, but I think that must be a holdover from the old days. There were some exceptions, but most of the time I felt safe. I did teach at least 8 murderers; some of them were frightening, but some of them were not intimidating at all. I don’t know if the drug problems were any worse. There were still problems with alcoholism. Only rarely did I have students be vulgar to me, but the words they used were a little less sexist and more violent as I grew older. I just can’t make many generalizations about the neighborhood. We had flakes and geniuses. Lots of rascals and most were quite endearing.
You were right to question the absolute. But now you have been given some examples of times that women were prevented by law from holding certain jobs. And I’m still not certain what military law says about women in combat. Even as a teacher I was aware that men could coach women’s basketball but women couldn’t coach men’s basketball. When I asked our principal about it, he told me that it was none of my business. I was truly surprised to hear this coming from an otherwise intelligent black principal. I thought he would identify with the denial of equal rights.
There were so many laws David42, that we took our substandard situation as normal and just really didn’t question it much until the women’s movement. But there were ways that were just ingrained and set. In high school, boys took shop and girls took home economics. No one thought to question it ever. It was as standard as going to different bathrooms.
He’s pretty clear that the bad thing that’s happened to him is that he’s in prison. There’s no note of remorse anywhere in the song for what he did to his girlfriend.
That’s not any drug slang I’ve ever heard.
And that’s significant because…
I’m getting more than a little sick of you inventing gay people to mouth whatever derogatory nonsense you want to hang on the gay rights movement as a whole, so unless you can provide a name for this supposed lesbian feminist, where she said it, and the full context for the quote, I’m going to assume that she does not, in fact, exist.
There is no part of this quote that makes any sense.
There’s a gigantic and flourishing genre of rock music today - indie rock - which is pretty much 100% free of “misogyny” of any kind. Mind you, I don’t think that groups like Led Zeppelin were “misogynistic” to begin with, but they did sing a lot about sex. Well, if you want rock music that is not about sex in our year of the Lord 2011, you have a lot to choose from. Many of the most popular alternative rock acts today make a point of not singing about sex.
“Cock rock” is only one kind of rock.
I must have missed any citations to laws, Zoe, but I am willing to accept your word for it as I am convinced you argue in good faith.
When it comes to combat, I am willing to allow women to fight as long as they meet any physical standards for their job. For instance, not many women would be physically suited to an artillery crew. The rounds must be kept at a distance, they are very heavy, and frequently they must be carried 100 yards one after another maybe for hours on end. if a woman can meet the physical demands, fine. But the fact that most women aren’t going to have the strength to do it isn’t something. But this is the same reason we do not put invalids, the elderly, and weak men into combat either.
Physical necessities of the sexes have also resulted in some of the reasoning of a policy of no women in combat. When wars of attrition are the norm, and go on generation after generation, the safety of women is paramount as they and children are our capital investment in a strong military. In short, men are worth less in this consideration, and a nation in this situation cannot afford to send its women to war. Perhaps enough changes have happened to the nature of war that this is or soon will be nothing of major importance. Some of the “patriarchal society’s” ways about the sexes were grounded in cold hard reality rather than a desire to lord it over women or be unfair to them.
By 1982 in one high school I went to, one half semester home economics was a required course for freshmen boys and girls, just as one half semester of combined wood and metal shop was a requirement for girls and boys. I got A’s in both he he. My mom had taught me to cook long before that. I’m the eldest of three boys in a row. My mom wasn’t about to NOT get a hand with household tasks and so I learned to be a pretty decent cook by the age of 12. this was on a farm too, so I learned all kinds of “manly” skills too. I taught that metal shop teacher a trick about braising that he didn’t know. I was golden after that 
(Sorry for the digression into my memories, not sure what that was worth.)
There is a point that in a genre with hundreds of thousands of songs a few dozen examples of misogyny mean little. I have already said that sure some songs are misogynistic, and I can easily see that . What exactly is it you are taking issue with me for?
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And if you haven’t heard it that means…
Wow. I missed the part where I blamed the whole gay rights movement for the statement of one misandrous lesbian. Tell you what. I do not want to disturb your fantasy that all gay people are pure perfection in every way. So when you see my name, don’t read the comment. Until I am made aware that I am violating rules of the forum, I will speak my mind. I didn’t force you to read it. really don’t care what you are tired of. And I am just fine with you believing what you want to believe. I suspect the woman would not care for me posting her name on the internet as it was a private situation. You can find value in the anecdote or not, but it is going to remain anonymous.
Good for you.
What about Pink Floyd’s album The Wall.
It tells the story of an insane rock and roll star. In telling his story, his bad attitude towards his wife, his mother, and at least one groupie are plainly shown.
The album is said to be semi-biographical of Roger Waters who wrote most of the lyrics.
In the end, the Wall that Pink built to keep the world at bay is torn down and he is exposed.
Is it Misogyny to tell that story of “Pink?”
Well, see, there’s your problem - assuming you can score points by swinging to the opposite extreme. It’s a lazy and fallacious approach to debate.
How wonderfully convenient for you.
I was treating the question sarcastically. I know I should stick to actual debate and should have just ignored the comments, if sarcasm was the best I could do.
Yeah, but in all seriousness, there’s good sarcasm and bad sarcasm, the first being clever and the second… not. I’ve always kinda figured “bad” sarcasm included strawmen arguments (“Well, if you disagree with my criticism, you obviously believe things are perfect!”) and “smartypants” arguments (“I guess a bigshot Mr. College like you couldn’t possibly explain the situation to someone as dumb as me”). That latter form is unfortunately popping up more and more in this disturbing Age of Palin we’ve blundered into.
It’s not out of convenience. When you take all anecdotal evidence and criticize it in turn for being unsupported, I’ll take you more seriously. As a debater.
For instance, I can see that Zoe is well respected as a long time Doper. She also is sharing anecdotal evidence. Some of what she says sounds extreme, but I don’t question it because of respect for Zoe’s reasoning skills, I think she is going through a thought process where to make up false evidence would defeat the purpose, she has to work in facts to get the benefit. It’s true, she could make it up, but that’s not my point.
Is there some reason that I am treated as though making my anecdote up, other than content that may be disliked? And isn’t the alternative of that content–that there are never any misandrous lesbians…just absurd?
If there is some tradition or rule here that anecdotal evidence is disallowed, I will strive to obey it. But if it’s not, why can’t we all just understand anecdotal evidence for what it is? You take it or leave it. Its seldom seen as conclusive. But it can be useful.
I am trying to get along here, and I really have to ask you, Miller, please don’t be upset with me. I didn’t make it up and to tell the truth, maybe some people are interested in the perspective of my life, and I just don’t think I ought to be attacked on the truthfulness of my anecdote. Just take it or leave it please,
but I have no interest in making up anecdotes.
What you say has much merit. I agree the comment was ill conceived. At least I don’t do it very often. Thanks for the advice. I never figured anyone would take it seriously, though.
No, I quite like Penny Lane, although I don’t really approve of calling a grown woman “girl”, no.
I have cited
I’m cool with your test, although I’d propose a new thread for it, this has turned into quite the hijack, I think.
…which is why I mostly listen to indie, and women artists. Although I wouldn’t say indie is free of all misogyny, it does tend to be free of the more directed sort.
I’m not saying misogyny is the be-all and end-all of that sort of Rock, merely that the underlying culture is very much a Boy’s Club, and always has been, and that that doesn’t breed an attitude of tolerance and nonsexism.
I don’t have a problem with people singing about sex. But there is a world of difference between The Lemon Song and Feed Me With Your Kiss