Go back and read the whole thing. Don’t pick the stuff you think you can explain away, because its all of a piece. If you can explain X, it makes Y even less likely, if Y can be explained, Z looks really false, etc.
If you can address all parts, please do. No ne has yet.
Are you choosing to ignore my post?
Wow, you are still flailing away, after the trial is over and everything. Well, our society has gone through our process to determine guilt or innocence, and we determined that GZ is innocent.
So you can sit over there and flail and get red in the face all you want. The rest of us have decided what happened and moved the fuck on down the road.
In fairness to them, the media haven’t dropped the story, either. It’s a slow news week, so they’re going to flog the hell out of it.
No, I asked a specific question of Tollhouse:
You decided to jump into the exchange, which you are free to do but you should answer the actual question I asked – not the question you wish or imagine I had asked. I did not ask for a summary list of what anyone claims to be gaps, inconsistencies, or whatever – I just asked for the biggest one.
He didn’t have a single defensive wound on him. He didn’t leave so much as a scratch on Trayvon (that the lousy ME looked for anyway). Zimmerman, never in a minute of beating, had any wound other than a bloody nose, two scratches, and a few corresponding minor bruises. He did nothing other than shoot the kid. The evidence shows GZ only hit the “easy button”.
Incorrect. “We” determined that there was not sufficient evidence to be certain of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Different things. VERY different things. Confusing them would be bad.
If that were true you wouldn’t be in this thread. And it’s pretty bold to speak for anyone other than yourself.
To add to Stoid’s response I will jump in with the following.
Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman. The evidence supports this. Zimmerman’s interviews says this. All good.
Trayvon was bashing Zimmerman’s head in. Ok.
GZ says Trayvon saw the gun. Not exactly clear on the mechanics of that.
GZ says when he saw the gun Trayvon’s first instinct was to announce “your gonna die tonight, MFer”. Wow, TM must be a killing machine.
Then, GZ says Trayvon made a move for the gun and either touched it or wasn’t fast enough.
GZ says he got the gun (from underneath himsel)f before Trayvon had a chance.
GZ apparently got the gun first because Trayvon was too busy “bashing” Zimmerman’s head into the concrete to be bothered by the gun he saw and announced he was going to use to kill GZ with and made an attempt to grab. Nope, Trayvon was content beating Zimmerman very ineffectively. Kids these days!
Then, after GZ miraculously gets the gun he fires immediately. This happened.
Trayvon dies like Hedey Lamarr at the end of Blazing Saddles.
End scene.
I have gone into it at great length. Please look for my posts of recent days with the words “arms” - will prbably pull all.
To give you a quick idea: if you accept for the purpose of determining why it might matter that he did deliberately, knowingly tell a falsehood describing how he pulled Martin’s arms apart while he was facedown on the ground following the shot…why? Why does he need to come up with a lie? Why take the mental energy to tell people that you were on Martin’s back (this part is true, he was seen there) and you were doing something you actually were not doing?
I’m pressed for time, or I would re-walk you through it. A search of the thread on posts by stoid, inlcluding the keyword “arms” really should get you a couple of different posts pointing out the issue I have with this, and others as well. I think they are all in this thread, might be in the speculation thread as well, or better.
I’ll be back.
I wasn’t there, I have no idea what Zimmerman may or may not have tried to do in self defense prior to pulling the trigger. However, I can say that taking a beating for a full minute is a pretty terrifying event.
It may not seem like it, but 60 seconds of being mounted and taking punches feels like an eternity. Panic sets in after just a few seconds of someone sitting on your chest. I invite anyone who thinks otherwise to go to a local MMA or BJJ gym and take a few classes.
No, not end! You forget the best, craziest, least believeable and strangest part: after the shot (virtual point blank range, remember) Trayvon stits up, says “you got me” falls over on his face, and GZ doesn’t think he hit him:eek:
:rolleyes::dubious::eek: and THEN climbs onto Martin’s BACK, and spreads his arms apart to “restrain” him and look for weapons… and Martin is found with his arms under him.
THAT is the most insane, ridiculous, do you think we are fucking morons part that NO ONE has tackled. Not one of the GZ apologists has even tried to explain how all that could be true.
Cuz they can’t.
Cuz it’s lame and completely unbelievable.
And that means that Zimmy lied to cover something he did that would make it a slam dunk sure thing that he killed that boy and knew what he’d done was legally indefensible.
The biggest one is the story of the altercation.
Fear.
Fear can be assessed both subjectively and objectively.
People who are afraid run away from danger. GZ did not run away from TM at any point in time that night. Indeed, he admitted to tackling him and restraining him at his first opportunity. People who are afraid do not do this.
No witnesses described GZ as being in an agitated or aroused state just seconds after the shooting. The only help he requested was with restraining the limp, dead body of TM.
His vital signs did not suggest that he had recently been in mortal fear. Cool as a cucumber.
He did not indicate to any of the EMT’s that he was concerned about his medical condition. Just minutes before he was supposedly scared about turning into a vegetable. But he never mentioned this to the EMT’s.
There is no evidence that GZ was afraid of anything that night. At every point where a reasonable person would have demonstrated fear, he conveniently did not.
Totally agree. At the end of Blazing Saddles Hedley Lamarr gets shot in the abdomen at Mans Chinese Theatre(spelling?). He staggers around, falls near the concrete imprints of Douglas Fairbanks and says “how did he do such fantastic stunts with such little feet?”, adds his name and a dollar sign to the concrete shrine, and then dies. That implausible death is equally outrageous to GZ’s version.
It would be terrifying if he actually sustained serious injuries. Even Zimm’s own attorney wouldn’t go so far as to say GZ had a broken nose during closing arguments. He said broken nose, and then felt the need to correct himself. It would be terrifying if there was good evidence that there was a true beating. Zimmerman barely had scratches. I loved all of the doctors and ME’s who struggled to see the wounds in the evidentiary pictures. “It must be a bad angle” or " perhaps you can see it in the original". Sounds terrifying.
As I stated in my post, I invite you to go to a class and try it out. I guarantee you can find one in your area and nearly all of them offer 2-weeks or 30-days free so it won’t cost you a penny.
Look for a no-gi, MMA or vale tudo class as they are most representative of the scenario between Martin and Zimmerman. Traditional BJJ classes can sometimes focus too much on using the gi to slow down combat which isn’t really representative of a street fight.
Keep in mind this would all take place where you would sustain nearly zero visible injuries (you might get a bruise or two) and in an environment where you absolutely know that no one means you death or serious bodily harm.
What part specifically?
It is doubtful the wound resulted in instant death. I think this was even testified to at trial.
I believe only one lung was involved in the wound. If so it is possible that Trayvon having suffered a traumatic injury uttered something. Perhaps unintelligible. The human mind has a funny penchant for trying to make sense of speech. Perhaps the phrase is what Zimmerman heard, but not what was uttered.
Lastly, movement after the wound is certainly a possibility. A quick movement to flee, before succumbing to shock and the extent of the wound, certainly may have looked to Zimmerman like he had missed. After Z moved the arms, it is also possible that Martin’s last unconsciois act to prolong his ebbing life was to move his hands back toward the wound.
Everything I stated is highly speculative but not completely outside the realm of possibility. Therefore suggesting Zimmerman’s account is lame and completely unbelieveable is a bit of a mischaracterization.
I do still think Zimmerman created the situation, and bears moral if not legal culpability, but I’m not seeing the number of holes in his story that you are.
So it looks like the jury didn’t see it your way.
Well, no, that was my point. If someone grabs you you’re not going to say it softer but louder. I missed the trial testimony of the witnesses but one of them originally said it started with loud voices, both of them. So when you combine that with the phone call the logical conclusion is that Dee Dee heard someone farther away. With only 2 people involved it would logically be Zimmerman.
I won’t do this. Too lazy these days. I have trained at a boxing facility (was only heavy bag aerobics or fight dancing as my buddies call it to make fun of me). That training taught me that pro fighters are some of the most physically fit people on earth. No doubt. To do what I had to do plus get hit and have a guy lean on you for round after round is unbelievable. People who train at those places are in fantastic shape. I was there for a couple years. Now I like cookies and chocolate milk too much.
Boxers are physical specimen that can’t be appreciated simply by watching them.
I have had my ass kicked a few times. I have had my nose broken more than once playing hockey (sticks and fighting). I never killed anybody, got it worse than GZ, and I am still here. Somehow I was able to extract myself against other guys who weren’t trained in fighting without killing them.
Fortunately for Zimmerman he took MMA classes. Unfortunately he apparently never learned anything in those classes. Just as he never heard of Florida defense laws during his Florida criminal justice courses, Florida CCW classes, and conversations with his best friend gun buddy.
I simply don’t buy the injury/threat ratio. I don’t like the evidence that he never fought back.
I don’t like the presumption that Trayvon was a killing machine. I don’t like the idea that he saw a gun and kept “pounding GZ’s head into the pavement” rather than a human instinctive reaction to fight over the weapon.
Trayvon had a great weapon in his pocket. A solid can of iced tea that would rival a maglite. But when he allegedly approached GZ he kept it in his pocket. He never took it out to bludgeon GZ?
I am happy Zimmeran was able to yell seemingly unincumbered for 40 seconds as TM suffocated him. TM was smothering GZ’s face yet never got a bite mark or blood or DNA on his hands. Nothing.
Trayvon must have been the worst attacker in world history to do that little damage when presented with a defenseless opponent.
Zimmerman thought he missed with the point blank gun shot? Ok.
I hate the idea that after GZ spread TM’s lifeless arms out. Then Trayvon lifted himself up and tucked his arms in underneath.
Zimmerman is so full of shit I am glad he never got any of it on Trayvon. No Zimmerman bullshit DNA on Trayvon. None.
Let’s not even mention the defenses “4 minutes of silence” where nobody knows where either of these young men were. GZ certainly didn’t retreat with 4 minutes to walk a maximum of 200 feet back to his car. No, GZ was an angel! He was within his statutory rights. He was approached out of the bushes or darkness or something. He had no choice.
When Trayvon finally said something to break the awkward silence (including the word “Homie”) GZ said only “I don’t have a problem”. Then the idiot, rather than announce who he was or in some other way extend a civil coversation, reached into his pocket for something. Zimmerman never said a single thing to diffuse the kid’s idea of what was happening to him. All of this supposes GZ’s account of the meeting.
Still, to me, the most amazing fact is a kid, the only person on the scene without a violent arrest record, became the uncontrollable wild animal who tried to kill a stranger forno reason. Nobody was around to witness TM’s potential “ego blow” as Zimmerman fans like to suggest.
He killed the “fucking punk”.
He killed a kid who without a doubt wasn’t out that early evening to get anything but snacks. Trayvon Martin will now and forever be known in law as the kid who attacked GZ for no reason.
Forgive me if I have my doubts as to the merits of self defense here.