If someone surrenders to you, that generally entails physical compliance. If Zimmerman believed Martin to have surrendered to him, why would he be shocked that Martin became “unresisting” and let Zimmerman shove him off? That’s exactly what you’d expect.
Conversely, someone just pitching forward, limp, onto their face, unbidden, is more telling of the person being injured.
“You got me” does have some connotation to being shot, in an old-timey movie sort of way, though it also connotes to “You’ve won” or “You’ve figured me out”, i.e. "“I will now comply with you, armed person”.
Nothing about “You got it” connotes to being shot.
Care to tell us what that is, then? It’s not the witnesses to the fight, of whom the only one who could accurately describe the participants described it as Zimmerman did. It’s not Martin, via his girlfriend, as that agrees with Zimmerman’s story. It’s not the voice experts, who say it’s possible it was Zimmerman screaming. It’s not the medical experts, who say his injuries are consistent with being punched and beaten against concrete (although less times than Zimmerman says - is that the whole of your contradiction?) It’s not the coroner, who says Martin was shot from the position Zimmerman claims to have been in at the time.
So, what is it? I doubt there’s lots of evidence left I haven’t referred to.
I think people have spent the last 17 months pointing out how his accounts of events are not plausible. Several posts in the last few pages of this thread.
If you choose to believe GZ that is your right. It is a popular position to believe every word he says.
No, it really isn’t, though that strawman is becoming ragged from overuse. I don’t think a single regular contributor to Zimmerman threads believes every word he says. Unless you can demonstrate that they do.
At least on this message board, it isn’t a popular position at all. As a matter of fact, I don’t know of even a single poster on the SDMB who holds that position.
There is a huge variance in how seemingly normal people react to emergency situations. Some are calm and rationale. Some are hysterical blithering puddles of their normal selves.
I’ve answered rambling incoherent 9-1-1 calls where the caller repeats the same entreaties over-and-over and cannot seem to fathom that help is on the way when I tell them so. I’ve had a 9-1-1 call where a man said calmly “I’ve been shot” with absolutely no perceivable emotional affect at all. The caller’s emotional state does not necessarily correlate with the seriousness of the event.
And emergency responders are not necessarily any better than anyone else. There are police officers who freak out at the sight of blood and just repeatedly ask for an updated ETA for the ambulance (HINT: It’s 15 seconds closer than the last time you asked!) There are off-duty 9-1-1 dispatchers who report a car wreck and yet seem to forget all the normal things we ask for every day when answering those calls.
Normal people do not necessarily react in a logical and rationale manner when placed under extreme stress. A few do. Most, in my humble experience, do not.
I would not expect that Zimmerman or Martin would have been any different. I would not expect perfectly rationale recollection of the events. I would not expect moment-by-moment full analysis of all the available options at every step of their confrontation.
You would be incorrect then. People have been claiming that, but not in any way showing how it is not plausible. Contrarily, I and others have shown how his account does match the evidence - I did so in the post you quoted, and have not even attempted to refute.
Not here. I doubt anyone believes every word he says. I know I don’t. I also don’t think that because one (or even several) things he says is false, then the whole of what he says is, or that it’s evidence he’s intentionally lying.
cite one of the many accounts. I cite his video and that’s the last thing that happens in the fight.
I asked Stoid opinon on when she thought Zimmerman knew Martin was hit. You’re welcome to guess but that was not an answer. My guess is the ease with which he was able to get him off his chest and the subsequent lack of resistance.
None of the evidence contradicts Zimmerman’s account. You can invoke your belief system, but none of it contradicts it.
Actually, I don’t think they decided that at all. I think they concluded that the state had not proven beyond all reasonable doubt that Zimmerman was not actually in fear of death. Not quite the same thing.
Zimmerman was not found ‘innocent’, he was found ‘not guilty’.
well your opinion isn’t backed up by evidence. The coroner’s report showed that his chest was full of blood so his heart had to continue beating. So Zimmerman’s claim that Martin didn’t say something isn’t disproved.
Well that makes sense coming from you but you can’t even be bothered to remember that I thought Zimmerman was guilty at the beginning of the original thread. I then read through the evidence looking for provable lies and none were found.
You can’t seem to come to grips with the idea of innocent until proven guilty. That means unless you can prove it he is not guilty. They had the same weak evidence going into the trial as was turned down initially and had to bypass the Grand Jury to bring it to trial. The Prosecution fired one of their team members for exposing the fact they withheld evidence. This trial was a joke from the beginning and at best they hoped to find something in a year and a half. They didn’t.
If any evidence shows Zimmerman started the fight, or had his gun out the whole time or deliberately attempted to draw Martin into a fight then I and the others arguing the evidence will gladly state our opinion of guilt. But as it stands, the evidence indicates Martin went out of his way to confront Zimmerman and then attacked him.
Well that is absolutely news to me. Was Martin supposed to be giving up because of a gun? And you’re telling me that it would be normal for somebody who is surrendering to a man with a gun to just slumped over in the grass or be pushed so that you slump in the grass? No. If we are supposed to believe that Zimmerman believed that Martin was “giving up”, (Because of that magic bullet that he heard make a sharp left instead of going through his guts) Then no, we don’t expect slumping, we expect wide-eyed fear and arms up and Martin Being extraordinarily alert not sleepy… “Oh man I see you have a gun I guess That’s my cue to take a nap…”. Please, please give me a very large break. Particularly in terms of thinking that I was trying to make anything look any particular way since I think your view of it is ludicrous.
Which might matter if he said you got it instead or even first. But in fact Zimmerman did say “you got me”, and he said it many times, in many interviews. So there’s nothing remotely distorted about my pointing that out at all.
What ever else you may ever think of me and I’m sure you have a list, I am never dishonest in my personal life, which includes message boards. (I have been known to be dishonest with companies and corporations for various reasons. But that’s where I draw the line… I am never dishonest with people I know personally or I’m interacting with on a personal level. Never. There is absolutely no reason in the world that I would do that, it would give me no juice at all.
Years ago I was involved peripherally in a large bar brawl. It emptied into the parking lot where all hell broke loose. I tried to stay out of it and observe but got sucked into it with 3 of my own conflicts. Not one person’s account matched another. Not one. Most of it was time-line issues and the rest was who-said-what.
I’m guessing that you are conflating my belief that Zimmerman knew instantly that he had shot Martin with a belief that Martin died instantly… That’s the only reason I can think of for you bringing up the continuing heartbeat. Also I don’t know What you mean when you say “Zimmermans claim that Martin didn’t say something isn’t disproved” are you saying that Zimmerman claimed that Martin didn’t speak? Because Zimmerman claimed that Martin did speak… In later interviews he said he didn’t know what Martin was saying, but in the first interview on 26 February, He did not make the claim that he did not know he had hit Martin, and he said that Martin said when he was sitting on his back, “Ow ow”. Yes, I would imagine that having 200 pounds of George Zimmerman sitting on your destroyed heart and collapsed lungs would make you want to say “ow” although at that point I find it hard to believe that you could. So I guess Zimmerman realized that it looked pretty bad for him to be sitting on Martin’s mortally wounded torso listening to him say “ow”’ leading to his claim that he did not realize he had hit him… And did not know what he was saying.
. When were you voted spokesperson? Whom do you represent exactly? Do you hope to bolster your position by aligning yourself with others of like mind? I believe that’s known as argumentum ad populum and it carries no weight whatsoever with me.
can you cite where Zimmerman said the bullet took a magic turn? All he said was that he wasn’t sure he hit him because Martin sat back and uttered a few words. What is so difficult to understand about that? Can you explain your confusion?
no he said he thinks that’s what he said or something close to it. Again, what is so difficult to understand about that? You’ve been shown that Martin was alive after the shot.
Did you watch the walkthrough or not? Yes, Zimmerman says he thought Martin was giving up because he saw that Zimmerman had drawn and fired his gun.
Zimmerman said: “After I shot him, he like sat up…and I didn’t think I hit him, because he sat up and he said, uh, ‘you got me, you got it, you got me’, something like that, so I thought he was just saying ‘I know you have a gun now, I heard it, I’m giving up.’”
What you are doing is imagining how it may have happened, and then calling Zimmerman a liar because his account differs from your imagination, while also criticizing his observation skills and cognition during a fight to the death.
You imagine Martin, mostly dead and unresponsive (“sleepy”; I have no idea where you got “sleepy”, or the idea that Martin wasn’t alert), slowly slumping off of Zimmerman, then Zimmerman climbing on top of him. But, as Zimmerman actually describes it, it seems to have been fairly rapid: shot fired, Martin sits up, Zimmerman shoves him off and gets on top of him:
“I don’t know if I pushed him off me or he fell off me. Either way, I got on top of him and I pushed his arms apart. [Question from officer] I don’t remember how I got on top of him.”
Say that took two seconds. You’re shocked that Zimmerman wouldn’t notice that Martin was being overly compliant, “sleepy”, whatever?
As for “arms up”, Zimmerman does mimic that while describing the apparent surrender, which may mean that Martin did that, or just that Zimmerman talks with his hands.
If you say so. Conveniently, it helps your case, where “You got it” (or the more accurate "something like ‘you got me’ or ‘you got it’) wouldn’t. This is the exact same reasoning you use to call Zimmerman a liar.