No hard feelings. I know I have biases and I usually try as hard as I can to either disregard them, or at least admit them up front. Like I say, I know people, personally, who fit both of those stereotypes (“thug” and “mall ninja”) and at the end of the day, it wouldn’t surprise me if both Trayvon and George, either of them, or neither of them ended up meeting or not meeting them. We just try to rationalize the how and why of an event like this, don’t we?
I’ve enjoyed the discussion, though, and no matter the outcome, nobody really “wins” here.
That’s not what Ms. Jeantel says. She described Martin telling her that Zimmerman was approaching. Thus, (if Martin was telling her the truth, and she is too), Martin did see Zimmerman coming.
[Quote=you with the face]
What’s your explanation for how the inoperative flashlight ended up south of the kid’s body?
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Likely, it was in Zimmerman’s pocket and flew or fell out during the struggle. It could have gotten to where it was found in the air, rolled as round objecs do, or been kicked during the fight.
If someone wants to claim that they have bad joints and be expected to be believed after shooting a kid dead, it would behoove them to not be practicing MMA three times a week, 3 hours a day.
Okay, let’s say he did see him coming in advance. Let’s say he saw the chubby man running towards him and this is what prompted him to ask “why are you following me for”.
Rachel says the next thing out of the kid’s mouth was “get off me, get off me”. Unless you’re trying to say Martin failing to run run is evidence that he started the fight, I’m not sure why you think this matters.
Did Zimmerman say he had it in his pocket? Or did he say he had it in his hands, banging on it to try to make it work? I’ll give you three guesses.
Zimmerman’s lit flashlight was near the T, where witnesses claim the altercation started, than moved south. I suppose endless wishful thinking can have Zimmerman accidently dropping it, in his haste to get at Trayvon.
Well, if Martin was afraid of Zimmerman, and wanted only to flee from him, why did he a) stop fleeing when and where he did and b) not flee again when he sees a man running at him? Your theory on Martin’s motives seem to be contradicted by his actions, even in your account which relies on speculation.
[Quote=you with the face]
Did Zimmerman say he had it in his pocket? Or did he say he had it in his hands, banging on it to try to make it work? I’ll give you three guesses.
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He did bang on it, you can hear it on the NEN call. Cite that he reports doing this until Martin allegedly approached him? He’d turned on his other flashlight, recall.
You can be afraid and not run, you know. It could have been he saw Zimmerman only when he was right upon him. And maybe, you know, at that point he did try to run. But Zimmerman had latched on to him by then and he was unable break free. “Get off me, get off” is perfectly consistent with that.
The question is how many times was Trayvon obligated to run that night to satisfactorily prove to you that he indeed was afraid of GZ? Because obviously one time was not enough. So how about three times? Would that convince ya? How about a hundred times?
He told Serino (or Singleton) that he was holding the inoperative flashlight in his hand when Martin approached him. He completely omitted the existence of the working one from his account(s). It’s another detail that is damning. He wanted the cops to think that he couldn’t see in the darkness to play up his vulnerability. But Martin was the one who was in the dark the entire time.
you want a cite that Zimmerman placed a gun on himself where he couldn’t reach it? Is that what you’re asking? Thisis what a belt clip holster looks like. you set up up for cross reach or same-side reach.
according to his video reenactment it happened before the person came to the door.
53 seconds.
What part of “I don’t remember” are you using as a cite for when he was smothered? According to Zimmerman Martin did this to shut him up. This was his testimony before all the evidence of someone yelling was available.
I don’t think so, since he had time to tell Ms. Jeantel about it. That’s not consistent with Zimmerman appearing out of nowhere, right upon Martin. You don’t give play-by-play over the phone if someone you’re afraid of appears right before you.
Martin consistently trying to avoid Zimmerman would certainly show fear. It doesn’t appear that’s what happened, though.
Cite? I re-read the interviews, and all I saw was this:
He doesn’t say the dead flashlight is in his hand, only that it was dead. Serino refers to him hitting it, but not when, in relation to the confrontation with Martin. He doesn’t mention his other flashlight, but to be fair, it was a little dinky keychain job, not a tactical light.
Also, in your scenario, Zimmerman is also in the dark, as he throws his own light on the ground as he mindlessly runs at Martin.
So Martin’s words to Dee Dee don’t count after that? Putting that aside the reliable evidence of the NEN call has Martin coming to check Zimmerman out. Martin comes to Zimmerman. That’s not running away from fear. That’s the opposite of running from fear.
based on the evidence he NEVER pursues Martin. Martin is already around the back of the houses by the time Zimmerman leaves his truck:
2:08:82 - He’s running? Which way is he running? [truck door opens, door open
2:10:24 - Uh down towards the other entrance of the neighborhood
This is where we hear the truck door close.
No Martin is the idiot who walked back from his house and assaulted someone.
tough? He got his ass kicked. If he pulled the gun out in the first place like a tough guy I don’t think Martin would have assaulted him. The tough guy here is clearly Martin. The guy with a phone in his hand who could call the police. The guy who left his house to back to Zimmerman. The guy his girlfriend warned would end up with a bullet in his chest.
Like Martin I’ve been asked what I was doing somewhere. Twice. Once while I was standing next to my house. I had the police called on me for the other one. I didn’t assault either person.
Anyway, you with the face, consider an alternative:
Zimmerman stays at the T to keep an eye out for Martin, and meet with the police. Unable to get his dead light working, he pockets it and deploys the keychain one. Martin’s made it to his (temporary) home (as he told Ms. Jeantel, he didn’t need to run because he was right by the house; she actually testified that he told her was at the back of the house).
Martin sees Zimmerman (at the T, holding a lit flashlight), and for whatever reason (offended by being followed, wanting to impress Ms. Jeantel, ashamed of having run in the first place) heads back to the T, and confronts Zimmerman, demanding to know why he followed him, and starts a fight (which is consistent with Ms. Jeantel’s testimony, the “bump” could have been initiated by either party). Zimmerman drops his light because he’s being attacked. The fight moves south, the other flashlight falls out of Zimmerman’s pocket, and the shooting occurs.
Is there anything that makes your scenario plausible, but the above one not?
Zimmerman’s mistake was chasing after Martin. He stopped this at the suggestion of the Dispatcher. The evidence shows he did not continue south in the direction he states Martin went. That’s where is mistake ends.
We know Martin was at his house per the testimony in court. The only conclusion that can be drawn is that Martin returns to the area where Zimmerman came from.
Of the 2 actions, Martin’s was the one that created a confrontation. And that confrontation results in him assaulting Zimmerman. The mistake that lead to Martin’s death was Martin’s.
and yet your psychological retro-rant didn’t predict that Zimmerman willfully stayed away from Martin and Martin did the exact opposite. What’s up with that?
Zimmerman was actively working toward a career goal of police officer. Martin was on suspension from school for street fighting.
cite that Martin has a history of trying to procure codeine.
BTW, I’ve brought this up before. The premise for Martin’s 2 mile walk in the rain is for a single can of fruit drink and a bag of skittles for his soon-to-be step brother. He was either the most thoughtful brother ever or he had just bought 2 of the 3 the ingredients needed to go with some cough syrup at home.
So if there is evidence that he was trying to buy codeine then what are the odds he was buying the other 2 ingredients needed for a version of “purple drank” which is a sweet drink mixed with candy and codeine.
According to Dee Dee, Martin was ‘near’ his house. Depending on context, the 7-11 a mile away could be ‘near’. Compared to the clubhouse mailbox kiosk where he was previously, moving up the cut-through could be ‘near’. Pretty meaningless.
I should point out how hilarious it is that Team Zimmerman finds Dee Dee completely unreliable when she says something incriminating for Zimmerman (‘Zimmerman suddenly appeared behind Martin’, 'I heard Martin say ‘get off, get off’), but she’s the beacon of truth in anything that can be construed as incriminating for Martin (‘he said he wasn’t going to run, so of course he wasn’t afraid and he didn’t run no matter what Zimmerman said, he was ‘near’ his house so he was basically at the door turning the knob’).
And that is relevant…how, exactly? Is there some connection between RX Codeine and a propensity to sucker-punch people that I’m not aware of?
Oh, I’m not saying we disagree there. Zimmerman’s account is ridiculous. He says he was west of the T when confronted (from behind!) by Zimmerman, who approached him from the south-east. Zimmerman says he stepped back further to the west towards his truck as Martin approaches, Martin punches him square in the nose which, one assumes, would push him back yet further to the west/north-west, yet somehow he stumbles directly -south-. His first two or three statements all say he was punched, one time, and was knocked down immediately, with Martin on top of him. The whole ‘I think I stumbled, tried to push him off’ bit only comes in the video walk through; you can almost see Zimmerman’s brain realizing that he has to figure out how to get the confrontation from the T, where he was ‘knocked down immediately’ to where the body was founded 30 feet south of the T. Really? You stumbled forward? After being hit in a way that would make you fall backwards? Makes zero sense.
But it’s harder for me to see how Martin could be on the bottom, facing up, gets shot in the chest, but ends up face down with his arms beneath him.
Interesting. So the whole ‘reasonable fear of death/grave injury’ is just an un-needed nuisance then? I’m carrying a gun. It’s dark out. Some individual bumps into me in the dark quite hard. We both fall down, I hit my head on the sidewalk, something hits me in the face during the fall; could be a fist, could be the bag the person was holding, I don’t know. I guess your advice is ‘Better off pulling your gun out and shooting the person in the head! Hey, in the heat of the moment, you don’t know what the next hit might do to you! They might grab your gun from you and shoot you! Shoot first, ask questions later! Better yet, shoot first, and you won’t have to ask any questions later!’.
And we wonder why the rest of the world looks at the US gun culture and shakes its collective head. If that’s the general level of judgement & decision making ability you want & expect from concealed gun carriers, you may want to re-think how safe & smart this whole CCW concept is.
Evidence - besides Zimmerman’s self-serving statements - that Martin ‘attacked’ and was unprovoked? 2) You’re suggesting Martin had no reason to be standing where he was. I have no idea why you think so (I can think of several) but if you do think so - you must agree that neither did Zimmerman.
I am willing to bet every dollar in my pocket, against every dollar in your pocket, that people carrying guns shoot more people than people not carrying guns. I would also bet that people carrying guns shoot more unarmed people than people not carrying guns.
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]Objection - relevance. I don’t think I’ve followed your sub-thread here, but what is this even supposed to show? A belt clip holster worn on the belt has the gun -outside- of your persons. Zimmerman had an inner waistband holster; the gun was tucked inside his waistband, near his rear back pocket and concealed by his shirt & jacket.[/SIZE][/FONT]
That’s not what he said he was doing. If you’re gonna put stock in his account, you have to go whole hog. He said he ended his call with dispatch and started heading back to his truck when Martin called out to him. Not standing there to meet to cops for 2 minutes.
He never said he pocketed that flashlight. You have to assign to him actions that he never admitted to.
But let’s say he did this.
As I told Blake, the problem with this scenario is that the kid would easily be blinded by Zimmerman’s flashlight. Anyone who has ever spent time in the dark and suddenly had a flashlight beam thrusted into their face can relate to this.
The second problem is Martin’s phone. Why would anyone start whaling on someone while their precious iPhone is dangling from their ear? If his intent was to start some shit with Zimmerman, a rational actor would have pocketed their phone and earbuds on their way to the T. To have Martin acting the way you’re proposing, you have to assume he is unlike most people when it comes to valuable possessions. The fact that Martin was in the middle of a phone conversation is more evidence that he was the one ambushed, not Zimmerman.
Oh and here’s another problem. Martin’s phone was found south of his body too. Not far from GZ’s inorperative flashlight. Hmmmm. And Rachel said the phone hit the ground at the beginning of the fight, shortly after she heard “get off me.” Ain’t that a funny coincidence. Both Martin’s phone and Zimmerman’s flashlight were in an area that make no sense if the fight started at the T and ended where Martin was killed, but make perfect sense if the fight started near Witness 1’s house.
Everything that I pointed out above. To accept your scenario, you have to dismiss the testimony of witnesses in preference to Zimmerman. You have to ignore where Martin’s phone and GZ’s flashlights were found. You also have to ignore circumstantial evidence. Zimmerman had the motivation to approach Martin and the means to do so via his flashlight. Martin, in contrast, had been motivated to run from him from the start. He would’ve been blinder than a bat if he’d tried to mess with Zimmerman.
My theory is the only one that fits the evidence, and thus, it’s the most plausible.
Eh, not really. Zimmerman has had a trail of problems with law enforcement and likely suffers from poor impulse control (ADD). When you take his phone calls in aggregate, he profiled black men and used the 911 and NEN system his personal toy when he didn’t get his way.
Wow, talk about stereotyping. Since you jumped off the cliff, it’s my turn to stereotype now with a little of psychoanalysis on top. I think Zimmerman is an unemotional narcissist who was told all his life that he was special and that he would do great things. Despite unwavering confidence from his family, Zimmerman is, and remains, a high-school graduate who was unable to complete his degree program, unable to excel at work due to conflicts with his colleagues, ineligible to be a cop due to his prior record. Underneath Zimmerman’s mint-flavored saccharin exterior, lies a fuming, little man that’s prone to fits of anger and outrage. This, of course, leads to disrespect to minorities, such as women, which has bubbled up to the surface as domestic violence, child molestation, and propensity to report minorities to the 911/NEN.
I suspect Zimmerman, like many of his supporters, are annoyed - not frustrated - by the charges against him. Zimmerman is annoyed because he has been taught that the blood of African-Americans is cheap in this country. He must be wracking his brain at night, thinking, Why all the fuss for killing this black kid? He would’ve died anyway in some gang fight. This is precisely why people like Sean Hannity and Bill O’Reilly fell over themselves to defend Zimmerman. The role was to make Zimmerman an idol, a victim, and a martyr against the fictional tide black-on-white crime (e.g. “THE BLKS R GNNA GT U!!11oneone”). To them, Zimmerman isn’t just a victim, he’s a hero who stepped into the lion’s den with a black thug/ruffian/gangster and showed them blacks who’s boss.
:rolleyes: I think your “2 best black male friends” are code for whatever hip-hop/rap album you have playing at any one time. Let me guess, Lil’ Wayne and Nicki Minaj? “Go hard or go home”? Indeed. Go home.
Er, no, I don’t. I can do the same thing you’re doing: believe some but not all of his story.
He was never asked, at least not that I can find. If I overlooked it, please correct me. I don’t think it’s a huge reach that after banging on his non-working light but before getting out his keychain light out, he’d slip the non-working one into a pocket.
Your theory, that he kept the non-working one and the working one in his hands, and threw down only the working one (which was attached to his keys) when he ran after Martin, strikes me as less likely.
It was a tiny keychain flashlight. A tactical light can blind someone, but not that dinky little thing.
Recall what I wrote: that Martin went to the T to confront Zimmerman. Who’s to say that he planned to attack Zimmerman? If Ms. Jeantel’s testimony is accurate, Martin may have been angered by the question “What are you doing here?” / “What you doing round here?” and attacked on the spur of the moment.
Neither party was ambushed, per se; both Zimmerman’s account has Martin speaking to him first, and Ms. Jeantel’s account has Martin seeing Zimmerman coming, and Martin speaking first.
I re-watched her testimony, and all she says is that the phone went dead. You can interpret “grass sounds” as the phone hitting the ground, if you wish, but would that really make an identifiable noise?
Witnesses, plural? Who else has the fight starting that far south of the T?
No, you don’t, as has been outlined above.
The motivation you’re assigning Zimmerman is purely speculation, though. And you’re ignoring the non-zero chance that Martin wanted to confront Zimmerman.
Tiny keychain flashlights don’t blind people. If it was such a devastating advantage, why would Zimmerman hurl it and his keys to the ground?
Your theory requires Zimmerman to throw his only working light, and with it his keys, to the ground, but carry a non-working flashlight in his hands and only drop it when he contacts Martin. It requires Zimmerman to run pell-mell at Martin to attack him, yet inflict no harm whatsoever. It ignores other witness accounts that place the start of the fight at the T. It requires Martin to run from Zimmerman at some times but not others, to be “at the back of his house” and in fear, yet hang out there instead of either going inside or continuing to run. Recall that at about the time Martin would be at the back of the house, Zimmerman would have been talking on the phone and banging his flashlight, hardly a stealthy manuever. Martin would have known that Zimmerman was still nearby.
