Ok, Dopers…I’d like your input on this one. Last night, my dog took off like a bat out of hell down the street. We have been teaching her to stay in the yard, and she’s usually pretty good about it. After I chased her down, I swatted her on the ass twice, and yelled at her. She then went into that tail-tucked, sulky, “are you still mad at me??” cute-as-all-hell mode.
I want to get the point across that she did something wrong and have her learn from it, but I don’t want her to turn into a neurotic basket case. So, how long should you keep up the “I’m mad at you, you did something wrong!” act??
And please, lets not turn this into another thread like …well, I don’t remember the name of the thread, but the one where it got ugly about whether you should hit your pets. If, in your mind, because I whacked my dog on the ass for doing something wrong–that makes me a heartless animal-abusing asshole, please don’t bother responding.
I’d say two days should do it. Depends on if your dog CARES that you’re mad at it; I have an evil cat who does things simply BECAUSE she loves pressing my buttons.
Once I was working and “neglecting” her, so she jumped up on the bookshelf, meowed to get my attention—then, when she was sure I was looking, she knocked a small stone statue on the floor and broke it. I chased her around, swatted her and yelled—which was exactly what she wanted, the little monster.
Dogs aren’t good at associating past events with current (owner) behavior. You did the right thing when she misbehaved because the action and the “reward” were immediately associated, but she’s probably already forgotten why you were mad by now and she will just be confused by continued punishment.
Better, IMO, to revert to whatever training you were doing to keep her in the yard in the first place. She will remember what happened when she did run off (even if she can’t figure out that’s why you’re still mad) and this should reinforce her training.
I don’t want to give the wrong impression here…I stayed mad for about 1/2 hour. We made up last night. I was asking more along the lines of 5 minutes? an hour? 3 hours? I know that if I stayed angry, she would get to the point of not associating my anger with her misbehavior.
It’s look like I have much of a choice. She gets worked up and breathes heavy and just sits on the floor looking pitiful until the inevitable “Awww, c’mere, you little shit”. Stupid cute pets.
Dogs don’t think like people (I know, sometimes I forget that, too).
If you remain acting angry at your dog, it most certainly won’t associate that with what it did to make you mad in the first place.
Once in a blue moon, my dog has a hissy fit at being left alone, and if we left the door open to the room where we keep our garbage, he will occasionally scatter it all over the place.
I’ll yell at him, beat his ass and send him out to his pen, and he’ll act all contrite.
Go out about a half-hour later, and he doesn’t have a clue that you might still be mad at him. The big, adorable jerk!
Punishment has to be immediate, most preferably while catching them in the act of the misdeed. For example, if your dog runs away and you beat it when it finally comes home, it could begin to associate being punished not for running away, but for returning.
Well, I have found that it helps to have several levels of “punishment”–the most severe involving isolation.
With my dog, a mild punishment is a sharp “no.”
A more severe punishment is to put my hands around his muzzle, look him in the eye, and scold him.
The most severe punishment for when he does something really awful–he tried to bite my brother on the butt this weekend–is to scold him, march him to his kennel, cover the kennel, and ignore him for a while.
This is helpful for me, too, because then I don’t have to deal with him for a while, and I appreciate that. The isolation should not last long, maybe 15 or 20 minutes.
When you take the dog out of isolation, then you can run through a few simple commands, like “sit” and then you can reward the dog, and make up. In other words, have the dog do something “good,” so you can praise him and reassure him. (You really ought to do this after any punishment–but if I did this after every time I had to “no” my dog, I’d have no time for the SDMB.)
Pluto makes good points in his post about dogs’ inability to associate “present” anger with “past” actions. Also, as he said, reinforcing the yard training is a great idea.
Quick tip: if your dog escapes again, but returns on his own, do NOT immediately punish him. He’ll equate returning home with punishment. Our dog used to take to the hills, and since he was a Dalmation, (bred to run and chase) and we lived in the country, the likelyhood of him running deer to death, and therefore getting taken by the game warden was VERY good. When he escaped there was NO getting him back, he was GONE in a blink of an eye.
So we started giving him half a dog biscut when he came back from walks/playing in the yard. If he DID escape, he got no cookie, and was kennelled for a short (10 minutes) period. Positive action = reward, negeative action = no reward.
I’ve been dealing with my own little behavioral experiment, and I’ve found that the key is that anger is really never appropriate. Be clear on what actions are and are not appropriate for the hound, and re-enforce those actions both positively and (occasionally) negatively. What use is it to get angry, it upsets your stomach, and the pooch doesn’t get it.
A useful practice for me is that I am supposed to be the smart one, if the dog messes up ultimately I am responsible and need to adjust my actions. It is easy to anthropomorphize the canine, but inappropriate.
Green Bean’s suggestions are really good and exactly what the dog trainer in our dog’s obedience class told us. Dogs are pack animals and are happiest when they’re with the pack. If they’re isolated (but not anywhere too uncomfortable…their kennel is good), they get that they’re being punished. Never call your dog to punish him. In other words, if you see he tore up the couch and he’s now merrily romping in the back yard, don’t call him to you then whack him on his butt…he’ll associate coming to you with getting punished. I guess that’s the same premise as not punishing him from coming home after running away.
Everyone’s already made the point about the importance of the proximity of the action and the discipline. When it comes to the cats, on the rare occasion when they do something that actually needs correcting (like dashing out the door into the path of danger), they get a hard look and a stern rebuke. If I actually feel angry or irritated with them, this is followed by a sulking period in which I ignore them and they slink away to unseen corners. I believe this “separation” is a good transition from “mad” to “not mad anymore”, and it gives everyone a chance to calm down. They don’t need any more “punishment” after my initial correction, but if my very next sentance is lavish praise and kisses, it can’t help but be a bit of a mixed message. Depending on the mood, the separation may last two minutes or (very rarely) ten, and then we’re all ready to make up and be normal again, with lots of petting and sweet words. They get the message about the misbehavior, but it doesn’t turn into any neurotic thing.
That cute thing never fails, does it? When my last cat, who was very mischievous, managed to get me into a rage, I would raise my voice to him and deposit (not throw) him firmly out onto the balcony while we both settled down. It never took more than a minute for the guilt to set in. (“He’s just a little cat, so innocent, so helpless, how can I yell at him, even though he did deliberately push that 200-year-old vase off the table? I’m a cruel and horrible person.”)
And by the way, disciplining your pet is just as necessary as disciplining your child. I know someone who shouts “cruelty” anytime they see someone say “no” to a pet, but that is misguided, however well intentioned. Disciplining your pet to be safe (don’t run out in the street) and not obnoxious to others (don’t put your 150 pounds and muddy paws on the shoulders of guests) is as basic is it gets. When one of our cats jumps up on the counter, I pick him up immediately and set him firmly on the floor saying, “No cats on the counter.” It took only a few of these simple, low-key corrections to get the message across. Animals aren’t stupid, and, like children, are healthier and happier when they know what is expected of them. It won’t stop them from ever misbehaving, but at least they know the rules and know what to expect from you. Consistent, gentle discipline from a responsible adult is a necessary part of caring for any creature, animal or child, who is dependent on you.
I tried to reply earlier but my server went down, so here goes again.
From my experience with dogs (and from what I’ve learned in the dog obedience class):
Staying mad at the dog is pointless, she won’t know why you’re mad after a few minutes.
Punishing the dog as she leaves the yard is good. Punishing her when she comes back would be very bad.
Slapping the dog’s hindquarters is fine on occasion; negative reinforcement can be helpful in training a dog. Dogs are pack animals and need to see you as the Alpha dog, so it is okay to take a dominant position (make her stay on a leash, walk-stop on command, get smacked). Positive reinforcement is better for training, but bad behavior needs to be punished.
On a side note, you may want to consider an invisible fence for your yard to keep her from running and to aid in training. The guy who installed my neighbor’s invisible fence gave me a quote for $1,100. I did a little research and found his supplier’s website (Innotek) and found they had a better model (includes a remote control) for just $219. Then I saw the same brand at Menard’s (regional home improvement superstore) and asked if the could order the model I wanted. It will be here next week for $145.39!!! Their price is actually cheaper than the company’s website, go figure. All I have to do is run the edger around the property, not cut the cable or phone line, put the wire in the ground an inch deep and plug it in. Then I won’t have to worry about my dog running after rabbits and going into the road.
Tsk. You know, I was one of the crazies who suggested that it wasn’t a proper thing to do to hit an animal. But that DOES NOT mean I don’t believe in physical correction. I work with animals every night. Often times they are sick, injured, feral, you name it. They aren’t feeling well and they hate people, especially people who are sticking them with needles, poking them up the butt, or holding them upside down. They try to fight or squirm or bite, or generally misbehave. I sometimes have to throw my whole body on top of a dog to keep it still. But no matter how bad it gets, I have never (nor will I ever) strike an animal hard enough to cause it pain. An animal (that doesn’t need more extreme restraint) WILL get a stern voice, a firm tug on the leash, or a quick tap on the rear, just enough to get it’s attention. And for a pet that is healthy and happy, that is all that should be needed. If you are going to be all touchy about how certain people react to hearing that you hit your pet, perhaps you should clarify how hard you are hitting. In my experience, when an animal does something wrong, the owner hits out of anger, and hits much harder than is appropriate. I have seen people beat their dogs right in front of everyone at the clinic, and act as if they hadn’t done anything wrong at all.
What Pluto said earlier. Dogs forget fast and will only be confused by your anger, not corrected.
Should swat with a newspaper though. The noise scares them.
I kick the dog in the face so hard that it loses teeth and bleeds for a few days. Sometimes I change my shoes first, so it will hurt even more.
::sigh::
I’m not getting touchy, I just happen to completely disagree with the folks who claimed it was never appropriate to lay a finger on your pet. A firm smack on the ass and a loud “NO!” is a clear, effective (and I sure as hell wouldn’t say it abusive) message to a dog when it knows it is doing something wrong.
The only reason I mentioned not to reply is because I didn’t want this thread to turn into a rehash of the other one. Take it to Great Debates if that’s what you want to discuss.
re: invisible fence. My parents invested close to $1000 fencing in our 3 acre lawn for the aforementioned Dalmation, who learned that if he ran fast enough, he could OUT RUN the transmission of the punishing zap. Friggen bastard would run in circles to build up speed and then BAM. This is after two months of intensive training.
They’re good for small dogs, but for big, fast dogs who would rather taunt the pooch next door than worry about a little electrical zap: no good.
Yep, I’ve gotta agree with Swimmy on the invisible fence thing.
The dog might well decide that a little shock is worth it in order to get to what he wants.
We have a neighbor dog who would run out of her fence every time Spot and I would walk by. She really really wanted to play with him. But once she got out of her fence, she couldn’t get back in. Seeing Spot was enough of an incentive for her to endure a shock. Going home was not.
So, I’d have to either drag her back into her own yard, with the unfortunate effect that she got a shock when I would do that (yuk), or I would have to go ring the doorbell and tell her owners that she was out again.
Her owners had to turn the intensity of the shock way up in order to get her to stay in the yard (double yuk). On the plus side, she is now Spot’s very best buddy, and he goes over to play with her all the time.
A friend had a dog who was smart enough that he knew that if he ran fast, he could get out with minimal discomfort, and he knew that if he ran back in, nobody would know he was gone. His cover was blown when they found that he had stolen a giant steak off of the neighbor’s barbecue.
Another negative of electric fences is that other animals can get in. So if a stray dog started harassing your dog, and your dog wouldn’t be able to run away.
That said, electric fences are a good solution for some people and some dogs. But they ain’t perfect.
The invisible fence I’m getting from Innotek has “Run-Thru Protection” so that shouldn’t be a problem. If the dog gets within 8-10 feet, a warning beep goes off. If the dog tries to run at top speed, he’ll get a full-power zap immediately, and he should stop and back up. If the dog gets trapped in the zap-zone, then it does shut down and the dog can get back to the yard (this is why the boundary training is important). The older invisible fences had a few bugs that some dogs could outsmart, but hopefully this one will work for my dog.
I’ve got a bit of a problem with my 14-month old English Springer Spaniel (Buddy). We adopted him a month ago, and he is a wonderful dog-except he is exhibiting signs of dominance now and then-sometimes when we are roughousing he will give me a little nip-I immediately correct him (with a tap on the nose and a stern “bad dog”. I’m a bit concerned about this-I don’t want this to progress to biting. Still, he seems like a happy dog-i don’t know if he was mistreated by his previous owners. he also - loves to chew-goes through a rawhide chew bone in a day!