But you didn’t just mention that some people think black people are inferior – you said that stating black people are inferior (or subhuman) is not a racist thing to do (or the statement is not racist – a distinction without a difference).
I strongly disagree. I’m not calling you a racist, but I think that statement (blacks are subhuman) is very obviously and necessarily racist. I think your assertions that statements and beliefs can’t be racist is contrary to the dictionary definition and common usage of the word.
So show a context in which asserting that “black people are subhuman” is not a racist assertion. I can’t think of one.
I have no problem with judging and identifying beliefs. This belief is wrong, that one is right, that one is problematic, etc. In no way am I arguing that people should be punished in any way whatsoever for their private beliefs and thoughts.
It’s entirely reasonable to point out that a belief that evolution is false is a wrong belief, and it is wrong to try to instill such a belief in others. It’s reasonable to judge that belief, while not advocating that any punishment be taken for any thoughts at all.
This is contrary to the definition and common usage of the word. In modern English, “racist” can be used to describe statements and beliefs.
He admits to being a mild racist, but I think he is underplaying it a bit. No, he’s not as bad as Hitler (hey, he went there first), but he’s well into Jerry Falwell territory.
Slightly more realistically, if, somehow, it was used in a context which called all other races subhuman as well. Such as a cult that claimed that only those who follow the way of Derek are truly human and all others are subhuman - whites are subhuman, blacks are subhuman, men, women, gay, straight and so forth.
Yes, it’s a silly hypothetical, but there’s an answer for you. Context is necessary to judge anything. I’m not saying statements can’t be racist, I’m saying that it’s impossible to decide that they are absent context.
As for saying that an inner, unexpressed belief is racist, you might as well say it’s purple. It is just as meaningful. Yes, the dictionary says otherwise, because it reflects the usage of the word, and in this case people are using it in a way that conveys literally no information. Expressed beliefs are a very different issue, mainly because that expression is an action. It is something that has an effect, that actually matters and can be judged.
By the way, I know we’ve had some not especially friendly debates in the past, so I want to thank you for keeping this one interesting and civil.
I think we’ve been over the inherent pejorative (and non-factual) nature of the word “subhuman”.
This is still racist (or bigoted) – against everyone except for the Derekites. I don’t think broadening the targets makes it any less racist.
I don’t think it fits – I think it’s still racist, or at least bigoted, even if it includes multiple groups alongside it.
I think you’re admitting here that it’s just you who thinks beliefs can’t be racist, but I’ll disagree anyway. It can be just as instructive and useful to talk about why certain beliefs might be racist/bigoted/wrong/problematic as it can be for certain statements – to share ideas and understanding on what causes and influences these bad things.
Hitler’s belief that the Jews needed to be destroyed was a racist belief. His actions were far, far worse, of course, but it’s fine to talk about his mistaken (and racist) beliefs as well.
You may think thoughts don’t actually exist. I take it they didn’t get past idealism in your Phil101 class?
Most of the rest of us know they do exist, because they cause the effects you’re fixated on. I’m not saying I can read minds, mind you. I’m just saying the thoughts exist and we can evaluate them as things. Kind of like how we can still evaluate scientific phenomena that have no physical effect on us.
So, to paraphrase: “I’m out of order? You’re out of order. The whole system is out of order!”* Yeah, good job not coming across like a nutjob.
Yes, I’m aware this is a misquote, but it scans better.
Going back to the OP (sorry, I just got here…but I read the first and last pages at least), Steophan seems to be trying to make some distinction between statements and opinions.
Well, if he wants to say the proposition “Blacks are sub-human” purely as a statement, floating about the Platonic realm, is not racist, but a human asserting said statement is true (and thereby expressing an opinion), is racist, then sure, I can go with that.
I’m lost as to why he would care about such a distinction however.
They have to have an effect on something, though, otherwise they don’t exist. And they have to have a measurable effect for us to know they exist. I see no good reason not to treat mental phenomena the same way.
You’ve got my point entirely, and the reason I care about it is mainly because people are arguing about it, to be completely honest, but also because I think it’s ridiculous to claim that someone who has an unexpressed passing thought of whatever nature can be considered racist because of that thought.
All mental phenomena are real, in that they’re just brain activity, same as physical effects exist. No thought exists in any Platonic abstract realm.
We can, in fact, scan people’s brains, and we’re only getting better and better at this over time. I’m not saying we can read minds yet, any more than we can detect Dark Matter But both are possible, hence idealism is bunk.
And there was me thinking that Nineteen Eighty-Four and Minority Report were meant to be warnings, not aims… Enjoy trying to fight thoughtcrime and pre-crime.
Judging the morality of an unexpressed thought or an untaken action seems equal parts absurd and abhorrent to me.
But what if we’re not judging the person? Everyone has racist thoughts. I think it’s important to recognize when I have a racist thought, and recognize why that thought is racist, and I like to talk about it because other people might provide a new perspective on which thoughts might be racist. I think that helps me be a better person.
Isn’t that a good, positive thing? Don’t you want to know which “sneaky” racist thoughts might be sneaking through your mind unidentified?
You’re agreeing with me that asserting that the statement is true is racist. But are saying that just having that thought is not.
But I can assert a statement is true without actually speaking it out loud. If a guy shouts a racist opinion in a forest where no-one can hear him, is he still a racist?
Not really, no.
We can say that a particular hypothetical thought is hateful, or spiteful, or compassionate or whatever, even though we can’t in reality look inside people’s minds, and even though it would not be possible (or sensible) to punish thoughts.
We can do this because people can talk about their thoughts, and what leads them to particular opinions and actions.
All ideas carry some moral weight (some a lot less than others). It’s impossible to judge individual people for thoughts they don’t express, because we can’t read minds. But we can certainly judge particular ideas, and indicate that thinking them would be immoral regardless of whether they’re ever said out loud. If you think “Blacks are subhuman” and never, ever express it, you’re still a racist. Because the thought exists, and at least one person knows that it does.
Okay, I’ll amend my statement – most people have racist thoughts at some point (IMO). I have in the past, and recognizing that those thoughts were racist helped me to understand that they were both false and harmful.
Agreed - having a few racist thoughts doesn’t make someone a racist. Having more than a few, or not regretting the ones you do have, that would make one a racist. And acting on them, that would make one really racist.
