My theory is that you don’t see as many accusations of lesbianism not because manly stuff is ipso facto okay, but rather because lesbianism isn’t considered as big a deal - women are not nearly as afraid of being labelled with it. While being branded a lesbian (if you are not) is still a perjorative for many, it lacks the ‘sting’ of being branded gay. I suspect that this is a function of modern feminism, a woman pursuing ‘manly’ interests is more likely to be seen as a heroic gender-role buster, whereas a man pursuing ‘womanly’ interests is more likely to be seen as a freak. Wasn’t always so, I suspect.
I agree with you. But after hearing all of the women in this thread talk about this same phenomenon, it is starting to sound to me like women do wear their “man interests” with some kind of badge of pride
I know the difference between a butterfly and standup goalie! I can throw out the runner at home plate from right field on an attempted sacrifice fly! I love Guns, Germs and Steel! etc.
I even remember a thread where somebody was pitted for having a bumper sticker that said “Chris’s Mom” or something - the reaction was like “How DARE you identify yourself according to your relationship with them - don’t you understand how demeaning that is???!!!??!?”
However, nobody has ever directed that attitude towards Elendil’s Heir or any of the dopers whose names are reminiscent of bands/songs/movies, etc. But to be proud of your kids/husband/family to the point where your internet screen name references that pride? Horrible!
My take on it is based on my own behavior, the behavior of the people I know, and the behavior of some women on this board. It’s a generalization, but so what:
When you’re a smart little girl, you get lots of attention for being smart, so you develop that. Then, as you slide into that hellpit of adolescence, being smart and tom-boy-ish is on par with leprosy. That really hurts (really, really, really).
So, you become one of the guys, and demonize everything that the preppy girls are into - clothes, shoes, make-up, etc. You wear flannel and tie your hair back with rawhide, and just generally use whatever you can to bring your identity away from the preps (which you can’t compete with) and establish your own. This is why a lot of girly stuff that isn’t in the realm of junior high, like knitting, gets a pass.
As you get older and more confident, you give yourself permission to like those things again, if in fact you actually like them. I’m back into jewelry and make-up and nice clothing.
It’s still hard for me to control my knee-jerk reaction against that stuff. I hated SATC for years until I actually saw the show. Turns out, I would have hated it anyway, but it would have been for writing and plot, as opposed to the focus on what the preps liked.
As a man, I like makeup, women’s fashion and jewelry. This isn’t a declaration that I’m a transvestite, years ago I discovered that these things can make women happy and more appealing to me. As a result I approached makeup with the same determination and geeky obsession I bring to technical topics. It really paid off, I know far more about makeup than my SO and she respects my opinion. It’s nice not to be ignored or patronized during “girly” conversations, women can be just as disparaging as men in this respect.
With that preamble, thank you pbbth for recommending Nora Roberts. That bag borrow or steal site looks interesting; I might end up a member before my SO’s sister’s wedding, for obvious reasons.
It almost strikes me as apologizing for liking “girly” things, though, as admitting you like one seems to always be followed by the other (not just in this thread).
"I’ve got 50 pairs of Louboutin shoes but it’s okay because I’m fluent in Klingon.
or
“I want that new Prada bag so much! Did I mention I’ve memorized all the NFL rushing stats going back to 1953?” Grab crotch, spit.
Can’t you like both without feeling the need to defend yourself?
I agree that lesbianism carries less stigma than male homosexuality. But I think you’re still missing the point. If we consider “finding women sexually attractive” as a guy interest, and we believe that guy interests are considered more socially acceptable than non-guy interests by virtue of being, then we would expect lesbians to have a easier time of it than gay men. And that’s exactly what we see.
But the thing is, as a woman, I would be very surprised if anyone suggested that I must be gay for liking a stereotypically male thing, and I don’t think stigma or its relative lack thereof has anything to do with why this association isn’t being made more often. A lot of women would be offended to be considered gay for liking guy things (Sara Palin seems like one of the type), and wouldn’t hesitate to put someone in their place if such an accusation was made. But these kinds of accusations aren’t being made because anyone would who call a woman gay for being a sports fan or liking cars would more than likely be the one who is laughed at and teased (if not burned at the stake). Whereas, a man can be accused of being gay because he likes the Real Housewives without there being much controversy at all.
I agree with you here, to a certain extent. But that’s not really what the discussion is about.
Well sure. Add Mad Men and a host of other male-oriented shows and films as well. One can easily make an argument that such “manly” pursuits as womanizing, drinking excessively (especially while working), cheating, rampant materialism and violence are at least as contemptable.
I feel like women getting less flak for liking “guy stuff” is definitely less about the lesbian/gay thing, and more about guy stuff being acceptable, as you with the face has pointed out. Well, I do think that feminism making it easier for women to take on male roles is part of it. Growing up in the 80s and 90s I heard, “Girls can do anything!” a lot and not so much the message of it being OK for guys to do anything–i.e., girly things.
But I do think of the stereotype of a very attractive girl liking things like gaming or sports or whatnot and that being the sort of “perfect women” to some guys. And that seems less about freedom for women than it is about men thinking that what they like is the default and of course any really smart awesome woman would get that. For example there’s a site now where men can go and pay hot women to play online games with them.
But Mad Men isn’t suggesting that this stuff is good. If anything, it’s condemning the sexist world of the early 60s.
Yes, this is what I was getting at above. And the fact that a woman who likes the NFL doesn’t have to qualify that with “but I like purses too, really!” statement.
I’ve done it myself, though recently I’m trying to stop myself. If someone mistakenly underestimates me because I like make-up, isn’t that their character flaw, not mine?
Not a chance. I sat through Twilight, but I draw the line at Sex and the City. Some things deserve to be deconstructed and openly mocked, it makes the world a better place.
I can’t follow that logic. Are you claiming that “liking women sexually” is simply more acceptable, no matter who does it, because this is a “guy interest” and in general all guy interests are more socially acceptable?
I’d put it differently, that the unique element is not “guy interests”, it is the stigma attached to male homosexuality. Men shy away from pursuing girly interests because we are socialized from a young age to fear being tainted with that label. At least when I was growing up, all too many years ago, being called “gay” was the ultimate schoolyard taunt.
This may be an artifact of our times, though. Women who first broke the gender barriers were, or so history relates (I’m not that old), generally treated with distain for so doing. They were not congratulated by society at large, but were often considered ‘unwomanly’ freaks. Looking backwards, of course they are often retroactively considered heroines - by folks these days.
The feminist notion that women ought to be free to pursue their interests (even if typically ‘manly’) is now so deeply engrained in our culture that even a paleo-conservative woman like Palin has happily embraced it - at least, when it comes to herself.
Count me as someone who loves Sex and the City (the movie just like Twilight needed a lot of work). I don’t care who knows and I don’t care who mocks me for it, the writing was terrific, the cast was excellent and it was hysterically funny. I really don’t understand the hate for it unless people are projecting their own lives and personalities onto the show.
