You really are a vile piece of shit, you pathetic hypocrite.
You’re still being very silly to espouse this theory and wave it around as if everyone else should accept it as truth.
But you’ve stated your position, it has been questioned, mocked and given the :rolleyes:, so we can move on now, right?
I think you misunderstand. I never said they don’t have the right to fire her. My contention is that free speech is a myth if there is retribution for it. Retribution (e.g. prison time, getting fired, getting smacked in the back of the head, etc.) is a form of behavior modification, intentional or not. Anytime you attempt to modify someone’s behavior, you are essentially taking away their freedom to choose one action over another by giving them a negative outcome for choosing one behavior. They do it in labs all the time. My dogs have all the freedom they want as long as they do as I say. We are in the same position in society. We are free to do whatever we want as long as this group says it’s not offensive or that group says it’s ok. I think people in our nanny state have forgotten the definition of freedom. Of course we never had total freedom to begin with, but these days more and more of our freedoms are being taken away. Freedom of speech is one that we have always been guaranteed but never actually had. There have always been things that we couldn’t say.
What Rosanne did was more than offensive. I realize that not everyone in this country reads very much, but the US has a centuries-old history of racism, including slavery, Jim Crow, mass incarceration, lynching, harassment and one could argue genocide. All of it- all of it- grows from the premise that one race is best and others are less, or not really even human. Pushing them around is either pest control, or Natural Law, or freedom of speech, or pick your bullshit rationalization.
If some guy in an Alabama trailer park spouts racist vitriol, well maybe that guy is already where he belongs, even though Karmic Law would recommend homelessness. I could let that go. But if someone has a national audience and is a public representative in multiple ways- yes, Roseanne is something of a dumb slob in real life and TV- like representing ABC’s business model as well as acting as a stand-in for Trump supporters, plus being a celebrity and example of success, it is ludicrous to think that person Could speak without repercussion. Millions are watching, millions are going to get the message.
When someone like That makes public statements comparing black people to apes &etc, the concern is that a racist culture is promoted, one that, if it were to become widespread enough, threatens to take us back to the days of lynchings. “Just words”, but only an imbecile or an asshole (probably both) would just shrug at all that and say, “By golly, it doesn’t hurt Me, so it’s like water off a duck’s back to Me.” Maybe that person is a fervent racist who wishes to return to the days if racial repression, hence the non-concern for their fellow man. Maybe they are a gape-mouthed dipshit whose understanding of things is as shallow as dictionary definitions /fullstop, someone who lacks the knowledge, wisdom, insight and morals to tease out the potential consequences of such actions.
But other Americans are basically decent people and won’t allow the nation to go back to all that. And so people like Roseanne see their status revoked. Maybe she can go on a stand-up tour in Alabama trailer parks and tell them all what apes black people are and see how it works out. It is still, after all, a free country. No?
My board detective skills are pretty weak.
Yeah. I forgot to use the left-wing euphemism for violence and economic ruin “consequences.”
And how would you accomplish that?:dubious:
Ok, I’m willing to give it a shot. Turn me into a racist. Make me change my mind about how I feel about anything at all. I’ll give it a fair shot and we’ll see how powerful your words really are. If you can’t go racist, turn me into a New Yorker or a fire truck or a rabbit or anything at all. Find a way to make your words have enough power to change anything about me. The fact is, words have always been used to satisfy the needs of the speaker. Good or bad. Take a poll anywhere you like and find any shred of evidence that says a single person was turned into a racist by Roseanne’s remark.
People are either brought up racist or turned racist by a negative encounter with whatever race they decide to dislike. I live in Alabama, the very heart of racism country. I know exactly what racism is and out of all the racists I know, and I know a lot of them, I’ve never met one who was converted or turned racist by listening to someone else. I’ve never even heard of it. I’m pretty sure there are plenty of people here who get their racism on the internet or television who have thousands of examples of this happening, but I’m saying it ain’t so. Most of the one’s I know were raised by racist parents’ The few who weren’t were made racist by some encounter like a robbery or rape or some other nastiness and in the end they erroneously decided that an entire race was to blame. Whatever the cause, words weren’t it.
I see we’ve started the advanced master class of your idiocy.
“Brought up racist” is achieved how exactly? By words is certainly part of that, wouldn’t you say?
Probably not, but it’s funny that you mention that because they do resemble one another, and that’s actually no joke. His son actually looks more like the killer clown but they both bear a resemblance. I think I’ll actually mention that tomorrow. I wish you hadn’t mentioned it now though. I can’t get the picture of them side by side out of my head now. That also brings to mind a friend of mine since childhood. He’s a dead ringer (pun intended) for John Wayne Gacy. I’ll have to use the printer at work though. Mine’s out of ink. I’ll be laughing all night now lol
I’ve seen more racism in the mid west than I have in the Deep South.
So why are you so bothered and wasting so much time endlessly carrying on about other people’s opinions about Roseanne? It’s just their opinion.
I.e., Roseanne made some asshole remarks that a lot of potential viewers had negative opinions about, and her job is based partly on her not alienating the opinions of viewers who provide revenue to her employer. So boom, she lost her job.
So what? Employers, neighbors, family members, friends, etc., are not legally obligated to overlook or ignore other people’s asshole remarks. As others have explained to you, the First Amendment merely prevents the government from inflicting punishment for asshole remarks if they fall into the category of protected speech.
You are correct that your own absurdly extremist and idiosyncratic notion of “free speech” is a myth. There is no such thing in any human society, arguably in the entire history of the human species, as entire absence of any speech restrictions of any kind, or complete prohibition of any form of retaliation against any speech, no matter how unpopular or offensive.
That particular definition of “free speech” exists only in your own somewhat malfunctioning mind, so you shouldn’t expect to find it enacted or espoused elsewhere.
Yup, and there always will be. There never has been and never will be a society in which there are no prohibitions and no negative consequences for any form of speech whatsoever. Which is a good thing, because any such society would be a pestilent shithole of hatred and abuse.
No, it’s just that society’s ideas are changing about what sorts of speech are acceptable and unacceptable.
Nowadays you have less social freedom (though still just as much legal/constitutional freedom) to say things like “Black people are ugly apes, ha ha ha just a joke.”
On the other hand, you have a lot more social freedom to say things like “I’m sexually attracted to people of the same gender” or “I married somebody of a different race so our children are biracial” or “My cousin was assigned male at birth and brought up as a boy but she identifies as female”.
In other words, we have less social freedom to spew bigoted insults but more social freedom to acknowledge identities and choices that don’t fit into the rigid categories of a bigoted worldview. I’d say that’s a reasonable tradeoff.
Have you ever actually met a racist? I don’t mean those sissies on television who use the “n” word to stir up folks, I mean an actual, dyed in the wool racist. Well, they’re pretty common around here. Lot’s of KKK folks, I even remember a sign when I was growing up, a billboard on a county road going into a place known for it’s clan activities. It was a warning to any blacks that cared to cross the bridge it sat next to. In fact, once we left school to go to the store about 3 or 4 miles past the bridge. The sign had long since been gone but we had a black friend in the car with us. As soon as we crossed the bridge he dove into the floorboard out of fear. It actually wasn’t that bad by that time though. I can remember hearing about burning crosses on lawns during my lifetime. I probably knew the people responsible but they would never admit to it. I remember a race riot at my school where my black friends warned me not to come near them or they would kill me. The next day they were cool with me again, but the tension throughout the school lingered for a very long time. I’ve known old timers who, no doubt, took place in lynchings back in the day. You want racism, you come down here to the bible belt my friend. Get a good look at what kind of hatred can come from the God fearing Christians down here. And it’s not the words that I fear from these people, it’s the actions. They are crazy enough and motivated enough to worry me. That’s one reason I advocate free speech. It helps me to figure out who the dangerous ones are right away.
Oh yes, I love free speech for the same reasons.
If people feel afraid to say anything, you never know who they are.
But the idea that we should just ignore it and continue to act as if they aren’t racist pieces of shit who we wouldn’t want marrying our sisters or dealing with our clients is pure stupid.
Geez, that sounds terrible. No wonder you’re scared at the idea of living in a world where it’s expected that overt racism will be explicitly criticized and scorned. I can see why you’d be very nervous at the prospect of reacting to racist speech in any way other than silently accepting it.
:dubious: What exactly is the difference between being “brought up racist” and being “turned racist by listening to someone else”? Are you claiming that the racism is physically transmitted through breast milk or something, or are you saying that it’s only young children who are capable of being “turned racist by listening to someone else”?
Nm
Sooo lemme get this straight, all these dyed in the wool, KKK racists (the ones that were apparently born that way and since words don’t turn you racist) that you deal with all the time (and yes, I’ve know quite a few) both don’t bother you when they say hateful things, as you said previously, but also worry you that they might take action? But when someone says something hateful on twitter and is fired, you think we are all being too sensitive?
A picture’s worth a thousand words…
Sounds like the perfect “How could this have possibly gone wrong” setup.
What is my notion of free speech? I’ve only said that we don’t have it, that I’m not offended by it and people worry too much about it. I also said it helps me identify the dangerous ones. Which statements are wrong?
If people would quit worrying about what people say so much they might not say it so much. Even if they did say it, it would be a whole lot more pleasant to not worry about it. I just don’t like to worry so if I don’t have to, I don’t. I really don’t have to worry about what people say unless they are about to back it up with action. Then I’ll start worrying.
My original post was met with hostility when I simply pointed out the irony of people using offensive language to put down offensive language. Funny how I saw absolutely no remorse from any one at all about all the profanity that was posted even though they were awful high and mighty about someone else saying something offensive. Nothing but hypocrites in here. Not a single decent person among you, me included. Personally, I don’t give a shit, but there are many, many people around, some of them might even come to this site, who find language like that very offensive. If there are any of them in here on this thread, they are far more tolerant than the holier than though crowd. Not a single person stepped up to apologize to the masses for using offensive language, not one. Way to go folks. free·dom
By the way, I’m not worried about anything said by anybody, I just enjoy debate.
Having said that, I apologize for my language and goodnight.
The notion that anybody must always be able to say anything at all without experiencing any negative consequences whatsoever, whether legal, social, or any other kind, in order for speech to be “free”.
The statement that “people worry too much about it”. It would be idiotic and irresponsible for people in a pluralistic society not to worry about, and push back against, other people saying hateful and bigoted things.
You personally are free to choose that idiotic and irresponsible path if you prefer it, but you are wrong in thinking that society as a whole would be better off if everybody else did the same.
And yet you seem to be devoting a whole lot of sustained energy to worrying about what other people are saying in opposition to racist remarks.
That right there is another of the ongoing “freedom tradeoffs” that I mentioned earlier. Yes, nowadays in this society we also have a lot more social freedom to use sexual, scatological or religious terms that were previously considered unspeakably and intolerably dirty or offensive. At the same time, we have less freedom to use racist epithets that were once considered (among white people, at least) a normal part of casual conversation.
In other words, our effective freedom to say words like “fuck” and “shit” and “goddamned” has increased, while our effective freedom to say words like “nigger” and “kike” has decreased. Although I personally still don’t use a lot of cuss words myself, I think this change overall is another decided improvement.
It’s not actually hypocrisy so much as recognition of changing social mores. As I said, general casual conversation nowadays permits a lot more cussing and a lot less racial slurring.
Especially venues of casual conversation that specifically and explicitly encourage foul language of the cussword variety. Remember, this particular SDMB messageboard forum exists specifically for the purpose of fulminating and insulting and generally letting off verbal steam. Complaining about bad language here in the BBQ Pit is kind of like being shocked by nudity in a locker room.
Similarly, if I were to visit racist/white nationalist messageboards that are overtly dedicated to the purpose of talking shit about nonwhite people, I wouldn’t be shocked at, or expect to receive apologies for, posters comparing black people to apes.
:rolleyes: We can only hope that any such people who do come to this site will have, unlike you, the elementary common sense to realize that if they find gratuitous foul language offensive, they should probably avoid messageboards that explicitly condone and encourage the use of gratuitous foul language.