street fight -- almost

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
1

Hey, everyone! I’m sending this to everyone I know, so understand that I initially sent the part between the lines hours ago. I was interrupted because I had to go to class.

I was walking home from school tonight, at which point my plan was to eat and go beat people up at martial arts for a few hours. Because it’s winter in Canada, it’s getting dark pretty quickly now so by five-thirty it was almost pitch black.

I’m walking home and, two blocks from my house, I enter the Gates. (I live in Middle Gate, there’s also an East Gate and a West Gate. This is the upper crust part of the city and you have to walk through some run-down neighbourhoods to get here, but once you’re through the gates you’re considered safe because this is the well-to-do areas that the police are eager to protect. I’m renting a room here and I’m paying a bit more than I wanted to, but I wanted to live some place I didn’t have to worry about, especially in a new city. By some bizarre turn of events, my University is bordered on the east side by Winnipeg’s downtown and is otherwise surrounded by some of the highest crime rates in Winnipeg; Middle Gate was the closest secure place I could find, since I couldn’t live downtown.)

Anyways, I’m walking through the Gates and half a block a head of metwo guys are ambling along. They don’t look like they really belong to the upper crust of the Gates, but neither do I so I don’t think anything of it.

I didn’t realize they’d slowed their walk until I was about ten feet from them, at which point they stop. They stand, watching me approach.They didn’t exactly have friendly looks on their faces, but they weren’t glaring, either. I can only choose to lock one of them with the eye, otherwise it’ll look like I’m glancing back and forth between them (which would look nervous), so I lock one of them with my gaze as I approach and shoulder my way past. It wasn’t a big shoulder, as it might’ve been if he was blocking more of my path, but it was enough to have a message.

It turns out that the one I chose to lock eyes with was the wrong one.The other one was the one who was aggressive. (At this point I don’t know it yet.)

So I keep going and I hear them start walking again. There was a shuffling sound behind me as they hurriedly close some of the gap, then they returned to a normal pace. I only had to turn my head once to see where they were, the rest of the time I could judge their distance thanks to the shadows the streetlight cast. After a few seconds I heard more hurried clothing as they closed the gap again.

At this point they’re about five feet behind me. I keep my pace, I don’t speed up. The guy I didn’t lock eyes with starts to speak to me. Nothing really aggressive, the equivalent of fluff talk. Testing the waters. Something like, “Hey, where you going?”

I ignore him and keep walking, they speed up a bit and the guy calls out, “Hey, you got a light?” So at this point I stop, then they stop. I pause for a second, wondering how I should wing this, quickly deciding to work the attitude.

I turn around and march back to them, coming to a halt really close to the loud one. Almost touching chests. This is when it really became apparent how small they were. Shorter than me, and definitely skinnier. They were probably of perfectly average body size.

I point out that the guy doesn’t need a light because he has a lit cigarette. “No. I wondered if you had a light.”

I catch a quick scent and I lean forward, sniffing his throat (I figured this would be more intimidating than sniffing his mouth – he can’t see what I’m doing at his throat, an area we naturally protect). I lean back and he quickly sniffs me to demonstrate… I don’t know what, probably that he wasn’t intimidated. He loudly issued some kind of demand about why I sniffed him.

“Have you been drinking?” I ask, clinically.

“Have you been drinking?” he demands.

This is the part I’m grinning about. “No, I’m clean and sober.” Then I reached out and stroked his cheak. “Clean and sober.”

He didn’t stroke me back, but he demanded to know why I touched him. I said he looked smooth and nubile, which would make him a great bitch.

At this point the second guy jumped in and quickly apologized for his friend. I shook the peace-loving guy’s hand and told him my name. I refused to shake the other guy’s hand until he, himself, asked several times to settle any hard feelings.

I walked with them for a bit, just because we seemed to all be walking in the same direction. The mouthy guy was bitching about how white people always wanted to fight, then he was mumbling about cross-training. My ears perked up at this and I asked what he did. He answered, “One sixty-three.” He gibbered a bit about weightlifting and 163 is either his weight or what he can press. He probably wasn’t a martial artist, so cross-training must have a different meaning.

At any rate, eventually I had to break from the group once we got to my house. The downside is that they know where I live. I don’t know if this will be a bad thing or not. (shrugs) I was pumped up on adrenalin. It’s only natural I made some mistakes. Thinking back, I made a lot. Showing them my house, letting my guard down when we started walking.

Even though nothing happened, my adrenalin was pumping. Gonna be an interesting class tonight.

I was hyperactive for martial arts. I was pounding the absolute crap out of people. Afterwards, I asked Curtis to stay and attack me until I ran out of energy. That seems to have worked.

I told them about the situation and we spent part of the time discussing what I could’ve done differently. Everyone agreed I shouldn’t have gotten within an arm’s reach of them, where I’d be vulnerable if they decided to start the fight without warning.

I’ve done the pre-fight interview before and I knew that standing chest to chest would make me seem far more bold than standing several feet away. Furthermore, I explained that if I’m chest to chest then I’M able to start the fight without warning. I’m not going to wait for someone to throw the first punch. My legal rights are that if I feel I’m in danger, I can strike first. Chest to chest, I can do all kinds of things they won’t see coming. Mash the nuts, spit in the eyes, finger jab the eyes, grab the hair, fishhook behind the collarbone, knee the leg, etc. As for weapons, the only weapon I’m worried about is a gun, which is a good reason to stay close. Distance gives a gun all the danger. If I’m close enough to grab the gun arm, it’s not a threat. I don’t care if someone pulls a knife on me. I carry two knives on me at all times and have been taught the Fillipino art of knife-fighting bare-handed, single bladed, and double bladed.

I don’t know why I added that last part. Basically, I’m sending this same generic post to everyone I can think of (yay adrenalin!), including a martial arts newsgroup I contribute to. Hopefully it doesn’t come across as bragging, because these are the details a martial artist wants to hear and I don’t feel like editing. I have to bathe soon, I’m sweaty and smelly.

2

I dunno - multiple attackers - I think cool calm agression was probably the BEST thing you could have done.

3

I’ve seen Walker Texas Ranger enough to know that 5 feet is more than close enough to kick guns out of people’s hands.

4

Maybe it’s different in Canada. If those guys had been really serious, they would have taken you out when you got close. Or, you get in close like that, maybe you intimidate them, and maybe you let them mentally work up to sucker punch you.

In a situation like this where the guys are threatening, if you choose to close, then you should do so in order to strike first without warning. Take down aggro boy first. Otherwise, you’re taking a big risk by closing. You might even be getting lulled into a false sense of security from your martial arts training. I say that as one who did 4 years of Kenpo, although that was 15 years ago. It’s one thing to practice defending against multiple attacks in the dojo, it’s another to go up against some serious bad boys who are skilled in getting you off guard in any number of ways. You knives might be a great source of comfort, but may also lead you into a situation that you would avoid if not packing. The trap of feeling bullet proof because you carry a gun. Just some food for thought and maybe a discussion you want to carry on at the dojo or with your sensei.

5

In my experience – albeit limited, I don’t want to cast the impression I’m some badass streetfighter – if they were serious about attacking me they simply would have jumped me. These aren’t honourable times.

They didn’t jump me, they threw out some lines (“Hey, where you going?”) to see how I’d react. They didn’t know for sure that they wanted to tangle with me (I was bigger than them and with my coat I look even bigger). If I would’ve failed the test – maybe by ignoring them, or walking faster – they would’ve had the confirmation they needed that they could take me. Even though my heart was pounding, I coolly let them know that was probably a bad idea.

Sucker punches usually follow the guy mentally prepping himself (again, in my limited experience). Next time you’re at the bar, search for “hard eyes”. Someone will be sitting, glaring at someone who is probably the life of the party – who is also oblivious – and this is the sucker puncher. He’ll glare for a really long time, you really have to see this to believe how obvious it is, until he works up the courage to walk up behind the guy, spin him around, and lay him out. Oftentimes, the bouncer will defuse the guy before anything goes down, he’s just that obvious about his intentions.

Yes, there are innumerable exceptions to these “rules” and following them as hard and fast rules could even get me killed. This is a general template I’ve developed for dealing with situations, and it worked today so that’s all I’m concerned about now.

I agree. That’s what I would’ve done if I really felt in danger. I didn’t exactly feel free of danger, but I took the chance that I could pass the “interview”.

Good thoughts, I can’t begin to disagree with them. The truth here is that the only way that I can eliminate some of the risky ifs that you point out is by getting into street and knife fights every weekend. Not something I want to get into, I think it would affect my grades. Luckily, I train hard and seriously, and that is probably the best substitute available.

Luckily they chose to back off, because I would much rather not fight. Less risky ifs that way.

6

Scurvy -

Don’t take this the wrong way but…

If I was still teaching I would use this tale as an example of what not to do.

You were approaching two strangers and as you approached them they stopped. This would indicate that either they wanted to see who was following them or to jump you. You kept moving towards them and they didn’t jump you so rather than say “excuse me” as you passed you shouldered one of them and as you tell it, you had to look back to see where they were. This means that you took your eyes off them after you sent your “message”. Your reply could have been instant retaliation on their part but you got lucky.

You kept walking and they resumed their walk as well, they caught up with you and asked some questions. This is where I would have stopped but I would NEVER have walked up to them so that I was within their strike range. Chest to chest? Nose to nose? What’s the fucking deal on the sniffing thing? Again… lucky.

I do like the line about one of them making a “great bitch”. Playing the psychotic often deters people from beating you up.

But I digress.

A lesson in wrong assumptions…

On more than a few occasions there have been people who have got the thought in their heads that beating me up would somehow make their lives better. Their biggest mistake was in making too many assumptions about myself in the process of deciding to take me on.

I’m 5’9" and 145 pounds soaking wet so I MUST be weak.

I’m generally quiet and easy going so I MUST be timid…

They decided that because I told them fighting me was a bad idea that fighting was the last thing on my mind and I was AFRAID.

They took my backing up or staying at “arm’s length” as a sign that I was SCARED of them.

They decided that hitting me was really a GOOD idea.

Then they discovered that I am 145 pounds of muscle, frighteningly fast, and that my legs are longer than my arms. They discovered that despite my smallish size I hit like a truck and know how to cause grievous amounts of pain.

I discovered that having your knee dislocated generally will discourage you from fighting me any more.

There was one guy who decided that getting right in my face was going to intimidate me, yes… he was close enough to smell but I decided that rather than check his cologne I would take him out as efficiently as possible. He was in my face for perhaps half a second before I knocked him out with an elbow strike to the temple.

This is the ONLY reason I would get that close to anyone who was even remotely hostile and they would have to come to me. I would take it that the person coming up to me was hostile and you approached one of these men in exactly the same manner I described and you appeared hostile; staring them down, bumping them, and then going nose to nose with them.

The only assumption I ever made when I was involved in a fight was that the person intent on beating me up might be more talented than myself in that regard. I’ve been fortunate that no-one who has decided to beat me up had any amount of skill to speak of.

I would definately go with the advice of this “Everyone” guy you mentioned, he seems to know what he’s talking about except for that arm’s length thing. Check the guys legs and stay at least that far away as he might know how to kick people into next week.

Don’t assume that size equals might, some of the best people I have ever trained with are my size or smaller and these are people I would never consider fighting. I bet you have people my size in your dojo that are human wrecking machines.

Don’t do this again.

Peace.

7

Watch out for a head-butt when you’re standing nose to nose with someone; especially someone shorter - you’ll get it right in the kisser/nose. You’ll both be more nervous standing that close too, and any sudden move can start something ugly 'cause you gotta react now, and are too close to see why his shoulder just shrugged. Could be pulling out a knife, could be checking his watch.
I’d always be suspicious of two guys baiting someone alone on a dark street; you might back them down to the point that they start talking nice, but they don’t suddenly become angles - I’ll bet they’re back out there right now looking for trouble.
The only trouble with establishing one’s self as a local “tough-guy” (I know that’s not what YOU did) is that you give the local morons a better idea of how to beat you. I trained breifly with a guy from the east coast who had done body guarding and bouncing for years, and had hundreds of scraps. If for some reason I wanted to get that guy, since I know what he can do, I’d just get a couple buddies together and take several baseball bats to the back of his skull when he’s not expecting it rather than take him on personally. Hopefully your two new friends don’t have the guts to push their luck with you any further :), but don’t turn your back on them.

8

For Scurvy or Feynn:
What in detail is a pre-fight interview, and how should one act during this ‘process’?

9

Hombre - Where I’m from the pre-fight interview is that preamble to the actual fighting. It’s when you size up your opponent and in many cases, work up the courage to initiate violence. There are many ways to handle the pre-fight interview and I don’t have time to get into all of them or go over the psychology that it involves. I’ve done some extremely interesting interviews with people.

Basically there’s a lot of small talk and promises from one party or another on how badly they’re going to mess you up. I heard a comedian the other night who was doing the pre-fight interview from different ethnic and geographic perspectives, it was bloody hilarious.

The “shove game” is where guys will take turns shoving each other, this helps to build courage and gauge the other persons strength. I’ve never much liked this game and always fast forwarded into the actual fighting.

The shove game is great as it actually brings people into range and in my experience, they expect you to shove back. They’re usually not ready to go right into full blown carnage and don’t expect the little guy (me) to go postal on them right away.

The point mmmiiikkkeee made was a good one, using your head as a weapon in close quarters can be devastating. it’s another reason not to get that close to someone in a fight situation.

10

As for the interview part, it’s much the same here in Texas. Guys shove each other until one of them decides to actually take a swing.

In general the best way that this interview can be stopped is with something nonlethal. I like to stay away from the “bow-to-the-dome” method as it doesn’t take much force to crush a human skull and I have more than enough of that force in my elbow.

That’s the reason that I like Aki-Jutsu. I can either put you on the ground and make you decide that you really didn’t want to do that without hurting you or I could knock the piss out or you; all depending on the pre-fight interview.

In my experience, it is not usually necessary to pummel the crap out of people. once a guy ends up on the floor and he can’t figure out how he can get out of that position without a butload of pain he will usually go away. I’m smallish, a bit bigger than Feynn (I weigh in at about 175), so people don’t expect to be in a lot of pain all of a sudder from this little mouthy guy.

Hooray for the element of suprise!

–==the sax man==–

11

That they were up to something was evident by their mannerisms. As soon as I noticed that they had stopped walking, I noticed they they were also looking at me pretty intently. They easily had a half block lead on me and, if they were worried about whoever’s behind them they simply could have walked faster or crossed the street. Instead they stopped, waited for me to approach, and fixed me with a look the entire time. Since I didn’t notice them until fairly late, I threw in the shoulder as I passed to make up for me looking oblivious.

I didn’t look back until I heard them resume walking, really close to me (god bless those wide-legged gang pants – you can hear their wiffling down the street). The looking back was for me to see how far they were and if they had weapons (and I didn’t really look back, I looked to the side and used my peripheral vision).

I do appreciate all the comments you guys are making, I know a lot of your concerns are things I’d be saying if this happened to someone else. I took a lot of risks, but the way I read this situation I thought I could get away with it. They seemed like a pair of halfwits and there was nobody around for them to show off to (if there was, I probably wouldn’t have thrown in the shoulder – because then they’d have to avenge their pride).

The short of it is that there was no fight and I even found myself halfway in the act of befriending them. I’m willing to think I handled the situation correctly because of that.

12

Check out The Bouncer’s Guide to Barroom Brawls by Peyton Quinn. A major portion of this book relates the pre-fight interviews he’s experienced been part of or witnessed as a bouncer. He talks about the different categories you can place aggressive assholes into and he really paints a clear picture of what he’s trying to convey when he makes suggestions on how to handle each incident. His first suggestion is to handle them individually (i.e. situationally) because a generic response for all encounters is sure to fail a great portion of the time.

For someone who probably spent a large portion of his life getting hit in the head, it’s a very useful book. I highly recommend it to anyone who wants to avoid fights.

(It’s also a bonus that he looks like a fit Dave Berry. It creates a funny mental image.)

13

I had the pleasure of seen a friends older brother handle a situation similar to this, only the aggresor stepped up to him chest to chest. the brother told me that at that point he figured the guy was gonna fight no matter what so he stepped firmly on the guys foot brought the other knee up into his balls and headbutted the guy right on the nose, possibly the shortest fight I have ever seen.

14

Ignoring them wouldn’t have been a good idea? Why? Just asking. This thread has been very informative.

15

We always called it foreplay or flirting.

16

It varies with situation. As a general guideline, if they’re just being verbally aggressive then they want a fight they think they can win. Ignoring them is often perceived as a sign they can beat you. Ghandi might’ve been passive, but that doesn’t mean he looked vulnerable. You better believe he could coolly look an aggressor in the eye when he said things like, “Freedom is not worth fighting for if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes.” (The quote isn’t pertinent to my point, it’s just my favourite Ghandi quote.)

If you act like they can’t beat you and you have no problem one-upping them (pat him on the cheek and say something condescending, grab his balls and issue a threat) then that’s creating the image that you can and will fight. This is certainly not a good generalization because it depends on the atittude of the guy hassling you. Sometimes one-upping will start a fight simply because the guy doesn’t want to lose face. In this instance, the solution might be to confidently and fearlessly tell the guy that nobody wants a fight and that you’ve done nothing to slight him.

Whatever you do, the important thing is to look completely unthreatened by him.

You have to understand the guy’s motivations before you can handle the situation correctly. Is he showing off? Is he trying to save face? Is someone spreading lies about you?

Again, get A Bouncer’s Guide to Barroom Brawling by Peyton Quinn. Reading the book is second only to actually learning this from experience, and much more useful than reading these posts.

17

Long time practictioner of karate checking in. I agree with Feynn that you did a lot of things I wouldn’t do. You didn’t need to close that much distance, hence you shouldn’t have shoulder checked the guy. You might have provided the spark they needed to get physical and you definitely put yourself in a much more vulnerable position that you needed to. Show them that you’re aware and paying attention and you’ve given them enough reason to leave you alone. Don’t let them get behind you. Walk to the other side of the street. If they follow, then you confront them (leave some distance to react unless you decide you need to act first) and you will then determine who the leader is and work on him first.
Afterwards, you shouldn’t have let them close to you as if you were being friendly. They could have used this time to decide they could get the jump on you and go for it anyway.
Surprise is a great equalizer and while I don’t know you, I think you put too much confidence in your abilities when you had no idea what their abilities were. IMHO.

18

As I said to Feynn, I largely agree with you. I would probably not handle any other situation this way, this one just seemed to call for it.

I really do think I read the situation properly, that’s what pleases me.

19

You were there, we weren’t. I I would caution you again to just be careful about the tendancy towards feeling invincible, especially based on this episode where it worked out but even you would probably handle it differently if a similar situation happened tonight.

I would reiterate that you also ought to discuss how packing knives changes your attitude, and is that a good thing. Let me ask this question, if you were not packing steel, would you gotten in the guys face and sniffed his neck? Would you have crossed the street at the beginning?

Seriously, it’s a real good discussion to have in the dojo and with your sensei. And by posting I think you’ve got an open mind about trying to refine your responses to one that is reasonable and works for you. Martial arts are a great thing and I encourage your dedication.

20

I would still have taken the risk I did. It just means things might be a bit more dire if I miscalculated. If I didn’t have knives, then I would probably be far more fearful of having someone pull a knife on me. Actually, let me clarify. If I was barehanded, I would be very worried about facing a knife. However, if there is any sort of weapon within reach of me – gravel, chair, garbage can, etc. – I think I could take care of myself nicely. Or I could try.

Now I just have a healthy respect for things I can’t expect, i.e. a knife from behind or – god forbid – a machete.

My old sensei would’ve loved this. I ran it past my new school, I’ve been here about a month, and the response was fairly lackluster. I’m still an outsider here, so this isn’t getting the attention it would’ve gotten at my old school.