Strict Catholicism - Healthy or Freaky? (long)

Great Debates
1

I started seeing a girl a few months ago who is a strict Catholic. She is the most giving, kind-hearted, sincere, nicest, and most fun girl that I’ve known and we’re having a great time. She should be the poster child for the Catholic Religion. And she’s gorgeous.

I was raised Catholic but had a negative experience (as many do) and cannot stand mass and won’t sit through one (except weddings and funerals). I have seen the Catholic Church at its worst through molestation scandals that went unexposed in the parish I was raised in. That knowledge, coupled with all of the Catholic priest molestation scandals exposed in the recent past convinced me that the problem is much more prevalent than what meets the eye, and that for every scandal that comes to light there are several that remain unexposed. You may take offense to that, but to me, it’s the obvious truth, especially since it hits so close to home. Also, while at church, it seems to me that the majority of the people don’t even want to be there. Then I feel kind of like a Nazi having to stand up, sit down, kneel, and then mindlessly parrot a bunch of words that you say at given moments of mass. It kind of freaks me out, and I get nothing but bad vibes from the whole experience. Also, I had it shoved down my throat for 18 years, so that obviously didn’t make me like it any more. I had to deal with the guilt that they use so effectively (that my parents compounded).

But I realize that a lot of people get a lot out of the mass and the religion, and that there a lot of amazing people that take it really seriously. I have met three priests that were truly awesome and giving people, like how you’d think a priest is supposed to be. But I’ve also met a few child molesters and a wide variety of asshole priests as well. Also, I’ve met many Catholics that are very self-righteous, which to me is the most annoying character flaw one can have.

Which brings me back to this girl. Despite her conservative Catholic views, she is extremely open-minded and does not hold my beliefs against me. She doesn’t try to get me to go to church with her, and doesn’t think that I’m going to hell since I don’t believe in Catholicism. We’ve debated over religious issues many times, and most times agree to disagree. I will point out some inconsistencies, and then she’ll “research” them to find out the truth. The only problem is that she researches within Catholic books in Catholic libraries; it’s hardly objective. She didn’t like when I suggested to her that she wasn’t really researching, but reading propaganda (which may be too harsh of a word, but it’s inherently non-objective). Some of the Catholic reasoning sounds ridiculous to me, such as the explanation behind papal infallibility (as a human he can fault, but the chair is infallible and therefore any official pope actions are infallible).

And this girl is extremely Catholic. She attends mass and confession several times a week, teaches a Catholic girl’s group, attends Bible study once a week, visits elderly nuns in a convent all the time, attends spontaneous Catholic rituals (May crowning yesterday). She considered being a nun, but was told by God that she’s supposed to be a mom and raise a family. Her apartment is filled with religious pictures and statues and prayer cards.

Now I respect her views, especially since she doesn’t throw them at me, and I enjoy the debates we get into. However, I can’t help but feel that part of her devotion is attributed to unnecessary guilt placed on her shoulders from Catholicism, which I think is unhealthy. I also think that there is a unique phenomenon involved with religion in which the more you challenge someone’s faith, the more resolute they become despite any legitimate challenges. Logic seems to go out the door and they get to become psuedo-martyrs. Anything that can’t be explained is dealt with through “The Lord works in mysterious ways” and “you need to have more faith” and “you need to believe as a child would believe.”

I have a few reasons for posting this novel. First of all, things are going so well with girl that I can’t help but ponder a future together, but this is just too much religion for me. I don’t want to use natural family planning (that’s what she wants) because I don’t want religion dictating my sex life and deciding how many children I have (which would be a lot if using NFP since it doesn’t work). I have an opportunity to move to another part of the country in the fall, and I’m going, but I would consider staying with her instead if it wasn’t for these issues because we are perfect for each other in every other way!

So I’d like all of your opinions on the issue. This message board is full of intelligent people from all creeds. Do you think that it is healthy to be that Catholic? Am I making too big a deal of this? Do any of you see where I’m coming from? I mentioned earlier her studies in “propaganda.” Do any of you know of any good books that debate these issues that were not written to reaffirm Catholic faith, but legitimately debate opposing sides to Catholic issues? I anxious to hear read your opinions. Thank you if you made it to the end, I appreciate it!

2

You know, this seems like more of a IMHO post. I’m gong to repost it there. Thanks!

3

She’s in a relationship with you, and she gets along with you despite disagreeing on something so major? That sounds pretty fuckin’ healthy to me!

If you want to expose her to other viewpoints, Catholics who have unusual views might be the place to start. Thomas Merton and William F. Buckley Jr. come to mind.

4

This girl sounds a lot like me (well, I only go to Confession once a month and don’t teach any religion classes) – but I’m reading your post thinking, “Yep, yep, do that, me too…”

I sometimes question the healthiness of my devotion, myself, so I’m interested in seeing other people’s opinions about this. I think this is a really tangled issue, though, and it’s hard to find a starting point.

Looking at it from within the Catholic framework, I can see that there is a fundamental conflict between the values of the “world” and the virtues promoted by the Church, so it’s going to look to someone “of the world” that the Church’s values are all screwed up. For example, our culture values ambition and the acquisition of wealth and prestige, which is in conflict with the Church’s virtues of humility, meekness, and poverty of spirit. So if you see someone who visibly avoids material success and points to the Church as the voice that’s suggesting she live in this “poor” lifestyle, you might naturally think she’s hurting herself and the Church is keeping her down.

So, basically, I’m saying that it’s hard to be objective in examining your questions, because it depends on your framework. And Catholicism is a framework through which you see everything – just the other day, I was telling a (non-religious) friend of mine that my faith informs probably every aspect of my personality and the way that I see the world. From the outside, I would imagine that it would be difficult to understand the motives of a devout Catholic, which might seem bizarre and unhealthy. And from the inside, you’re getting (to be honest) biased opinions on what’s healthy and good – of course your priests and counselors (if they’re faithful to the Catechism) are going to tell you that the Church’s way is the best way.
But I’ll give your question a shot: I don’t think you are making a big deal about this…I think it is a big deal. Personally, I think that marrying someone who is coming from a value system that you don’t share and don’t relate to isn’t going to make either of you very happy. (Though I’m sure there can be exceptions to this.) If you disagree about things like birth control, that could cause a lot of difficulty later on, with one of you feeling like you have to give in and compromise your values.
Unfortunately, I’m stealing time away from my job to post this, so I’m not able to say much more right now, but I hope I explained myself clearly enough, and I’m very interested in other’s opinions.

I just want to say, too, that I think it’s lovely that you care and respect your girlfriend and her beliefs this much (and it sounds like she respects you and yours too), so I hope things work out very well for the two of you!

5

One quick note: I bet it sounded weird for me to say essentially, “sounds like it could get ugly, but good luck!” Your differing value systems could end up being a source of conflict, but if you make the effort to understand each other’s ideals and beliefs, and you both feel like you can deal with the differences in a positive and supportive way, then everything should be jake.

6

A favorite pasttime of mine is confronting Jesus Freaks and Bible Thumpers. Your girlfriend seems like neither. She sounds like a devout person who has her head screwed on pretty straight. I have no issue with people who have the strength of their convictions as long as that is tempered with an open enough mind to allow for other people’s opinions (as seems to be the case here).

That you have open theological debates is good. When she goes to research a topic so should you. If she is coming back at you with propaganda then show her other people’s thinking on the topic and hopefully show her that maybe their opinions have more merit if you can show they don’t have an agenda (or at least less of an agenda).

It all sounds good to me but the future may be problematical. If you went so far as to marry this woman how do you feel about Pre Cana (which you will undoubtedly have to do if you expect to be married by a priest)? Of more particular note is how would you expect your children to be raised (assuming you had any)? The children would be the biggest stumbling block I foresee as she would likely want to indoctrinate the kids far past a point you’d be comfortable with. As long as it’s just the two of you it seems like you can learn to ‘agree to disagree’ with each other and be happy.

In the end it seems like you have a few issues to work out and you are fortunate that you have a woman who seems willing to discuss these topics openly and reasonably. Settle the issues with sex and children and I think you have something very worthwhile here. Just realize that compromise should come from both parties and not be onesided either way.

Best of luck!

7

I think you’re feeling a bit schizophrenic (for lack of a better word), because you’ve met a Catholic who’s challenged your understanding of what Catholicism is. She’s open-minded, intelligent, patient, and yet fully and freely involves herself in the faith.

Relax. She’s not a Dr. Jeckyll waiting to turn into a child-molesting Nazi overnight. Catholics, like any other group, have their good members and their bad. While I realize Catholics have done a lot to **** up the public perception of their own religion, the public at large needs to, at the same time, separate out the actions of the foolish from the values of the faith overall.

You might read through Tell Me Why by Michael Novak. It’s a book he wrote with his daughter (a fallen-away Catholic) wherein he very patiently answers her questions about the faith, all the while letting her explore her doubts and issues. It’s not a preachy book; it just answers basic questions from one family member to another.

On this point:

This one’s going to be a sticking point, since it takes two to tango. But again, relax. A number of my classmates have used NFP throughout law school, and haven’t had one “oops” baby. Have you asked her about how NFP works? It’s a very simple process: the woman just keeps track of the times of the month when she’s fertile by…well, I hope this doesn’t gross anyone out…but by checking the consistency of her vaginal mucus. When it reaches a certain consistency, she knows she’s fertile, and can just avoid intercourse if she wants to. (This is largely different from the “rhythm” method which you may be thinking of, where the woman simply follows a calendar based on her menstral cycle. That method largely doesn’t work because women often have irregularities.) Anyway, ask her more about it if you haven’t already.

And remember: there’s a number of other “in-line” Catholics on this board, myself included. If you ever have more questions, just holler.

8

Since this has been reposted in IMHO, I’ll go ahead and close this thread.