Students of Virginity: A Rant

On Sunday mornings I like to read the New York Times Magazine – or at least I skim through and read stuff that looks interesting, William Safire if I don’t think he’s being too self-indulgent, and always the Ethicist, of course. Today I came across this article, “http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/30/magazine/30Chastity-t.html?pagewanted=1&ref=magazine ,” which focuses on a Harvard student who is the president of a group called True Love Revolution (puke!), a chastity club that promotes abstinence until marriage with so-called logic. Oh. My. God. Allow me to rant for a little while.

They avoid religious reasoning (though the group’s founders were strong Catholics), which in abstinence debates I find far more compelling even if not personally applicable. At least if you say, “God wants you to wait,” we can just disagree on that one point and go our separate ways, no harm no foul. What I detest is this group’s distorted use of logic, philosophy, and feminism, and the annoying attitude that came across in the article. Some people decide to abstain, and of course that’s fine if that’s the right decision for them. But I hate being preached to that abstinence is better, for some list of idiotic reasons.

At least it doesn’t seem to be just a Hymen Preservation Society, a notion of virginity I find absolutely silly (in general I find capital-V Virginity to be a silly concept, too, but if we’re just taking “virgin” to mean “sexually inexperienced,” then that’s a serviceable word). They are against anything beyond hugging and kissing. Save it for marriage – and since marriage is the foundation for family, “it” really just means penis-in-vagina intercourse, followed by kidlets, retirement in Florida, and eventual side-by-side burial plots. Am I stereotyping? Gee, stop me if I’m stereotyping. I’m just some slut, don’t mind me. (Disclaimer: I may have accidentally conflated the Harvard group with a similar group mentioned, based in Princeton, with slightly more extreme views. I glanced at their website and glanced quickly away.)

Side note: speaking of PIV only, the group’s president, Janie Fredell, says oral sex is “disgusting and disrespectful." Dude, don’t knock it ‘til you’ve tried it.* Actually, I’ve heard this attitude from a distressing number of women my age (college), including those who are far from virgin lands. It’s one thing just to not be a huge fan of oral sex. People have unique preferences, and I respect that. But “disgusting”? If that’s the first adjective that springs to mind, then either you’ve got some issues about your vagina, or, honey, he ain’t doin’ it right.

*That’s the thing about abstinence-promotion groups, isn’t it? You’re being lectured by people who have zero familiarity with the topic at hand. At least it’s slightly better than grown-ups I’ve known who would wax loquacious about their wayward teenage years, extolling the inestimable value of abstinence… to which I always want to reply, “Easy for you to say, asshole, you never abstained!”

(I can’t even conjure up a way it could be construed as disrespectful. If you’re just shoving his head down [or hers, of course; I’ve been assuming male-on-female oral sex here - how heteronormative of me!], then yeah, that’s not very polite. But if someone’s lavishing pleasure upon their partner like it’s the only route to Nirvana, then what the hell is wrong with that?)

Oh, and about the gays: they can’t get married, so their obligation is to remain abstinent for life. Good luck!

In short, their philosophical “feminist” position is that women have control over their bodies. Cool, yeah, I’m with you so far. I take obvious exception, though, to the follow-up that the only way to be in control of your body is to Just Say No, 100% of the time. No intercourse, no foreplay, no dry humping in the backseat of the car… absolutely no orgasms at all. When asked about masturbation, the group’s president just said, “Oh, God, no!” Replace the “no” with “yes” and you’re a bit closer to my position.

But mostly it’s no sex with boys. After all, in case you guys hadn’t heard, there’s a bit of a double standard going around, and if women have sex, they are devalued. So the True Love Revolution (can I get another puke for that name?) is fighting the culture… by not having sex. Gee, my inclination would be to fight the double standard. Maybe that’s just me.

But my biggest problem here is the false dichotomy: wait until your wedding night vs. be a promiscuous whore who’s giving it away to anyone who makes eye contact. Nice logic, Harvard. They decry the hook-up culture. Okay, that’s fine. I think the hook-up culture on modern college campuses sucks in a lot of ways. That’s why I never participated (along with the fact that I avoided alcohol for a long time, which speaks a lot to the reason the hook-up culture exists in the first place). But it’s a little late for me to wait until marriage. There’s a huge middle ground, a middle ground I am delighted to occupy. When you’re with someone you love, you wait until you both feel ready, you respect each other, and you both care about each other’s needs, why the hell shouldn’t you have sex? For God’s sake, it’s fun. If you’re clean, monogamous, and neither of you is slutting it around on the weekends, you’re not likely to catch all the scary diseases they warn you about. Use protection, use good judgment… sure, it carries risk, but so does anything worth doing.

Don’t even get me started on the other corny claptrap that you hear from all the abstinent groups. This shit pissed me off long before I was any kind of active. You know, you’re hurting your future husband (or wife; at least at Harvard, they’re equal-opportunity) when you have sex, you’re devaluing yourself, you’re making sex no longer special… They even spread “facts” that have been “proven” by “science” that turn out to be complete bullshit. There’s zero evidence that premarital sex leads to poverty, higher divorce rates, or (my favorite) “an inability to bond.”

But if you wait, it all pays off when you’re married! Everyone knows that losing your virginity is the most beautiful, wondrous thing that can ever happen to you, a passionate night of joy, oxytocin, and sparkles!!!

Here’s another problem about being lectured about sex by people who’ve never had it: it does. not. work. like. that. Without getting super-TMI here, I will say that I was fully prepared for my experience not to be a bucket of rainbows. I did not expect to orgasm, or even to have very much fun. Still, I felt ready, I loved (love) my partner, and I wanted to do it. He did, too. So we did. It was awkward as hell and it hurt like a motherfucker. I understand this is not uncommon for first-time premarital trysts.

We are both educated young people. (Not long after the mutual deflowering, we went to a seminar by two sex educators on female orgasm, which promised to teach us everything we needed to know. Both of us walked away saying, “Well, that was fun, but I didn’t really learn anything…”) We were prepared with all the trimmings. We were about as ready as we could be – or so I thought! If only we’d had a marriage license, which would have conferred superpowers upon my vagina… and especially if he’d never ever so much as brushed against my lady-parts before that night, and I had never laid eyes on a penis**… if we hadn’t already practiced giving each other lots and lots of orgasms… Yeah, yeah, that would have been MUCH easier.

**I think if I were a blushing bride all worked up for my wedding night, I would already be nervous enough that, with one glimpse of that thing, I’d pass out. I mean, Christ, have you seen one? Oh, my bad, Ms. Fredell may not have.

And just for the record: so far my bonding powers are intact, I am not yet divorced or in poverty, I have no diseases or babies… and I have done it more than once.

But I’ve saved the best for last, the single paragraph that made me want to punch this chick in the face… or at least use words that I, strident feminist that I am, save for very, very special people:

I agree. Wholeheartedly. Orgasms are fab, but love is better. Love is the best thing in the world. I have never known anything as wonderful as the experience I’m having in this, my first love (we’ve been together a little over a year, both young and full of all that cliched passion). I am really disgustingly pukingly happy because of love. Love is a many splendored thing, love lifts us up where we belong, all you need is love. So what’s the problem?

Here, I’m gonna put that last sentence again.

You stupid fucking self-righteous bint! What the fuck is wrong with you that you believe sex and love are mutually exclusive? Really, honestly, you believe that because my boyfriend pays lip service to my bajingo, it means he only loves me for my labia? I cannot even evaluate how many levels of fucked-up this is. I am forced to yell the same two words over and over again: FALSE DICHOTOMY! FALSE DICHOTOMY! FALSE DICHOTOMY! The options are not sex-or-love. The options are not my-perfect-beautiful-experience-every-woman-should-have or the-miserable-bondage-of-sluttery. Oh don’t mind me, I’m a slave to my hormones! And this is equally offensive to men, who only appreciate women because they’re a handy place to stick a dick (except your boyfriend, who appreciates you only because you won’t let him stick it there).

Look, chick, I am appreciated more than I’ll ever fucking deserve. Conjugate it: I love, he loves, we love. AND SOMETIMES, WE ENJOY BEING NORMAL SEXUAL BEINGS. Mature adults in a mature relationship can handle it without devaluing all that is good in the world, and just because you’ve chosen something different doesn’t mean yours is the best decision for every woman, for every couple. Grow the fuck up! Jesus!

And get down off that fucking high horse; you’ll break your precious hymen.

claps

Brava, brava, and may you continue fighting the good fight.

On Sunday mornings I like to read the New York Times Magazine – or at least I skim through and read stuff that looks interesting, William Safire if I don’t think he’s being too self-indulgent, and always the Ethicist, of course. Today I came across this article, "Students of Virginity " which focuses on a Harvard student who is the president of a group called True Love Revolution (puke!), a chastity club that promotes abstinence until marriage with so-called logic. Oh. My. God. Allow me to rant for a little while.

They avoid religious reasoning (though the group’s founders were strong Catholics), which in abstinence debates I find far more compelling even if not personally applicable. At least if you say, “God wants you to wait,” we can just disagree on that one point and go our separate ways, no harm no foul. What I detest is this group’s distorted use of logic, philosophy, and feminism, and the annoying attitude that came across in the article. Some people decide to abstain, and of course that’s fine if that’s the right decision for them. But I hate being preached to that abstinence is better, for some list of idiotic reasons.

At least they’re consistent: they are against anything beyond hugging and kissing. Save it for marriage – and since marriage is the foundation for family, “it” really just means penis-in-vagina intercourse, followed by kidlets, retirement in Florida, and eventual side-by-side burial plots. Am I stereotyping? Gee, stop me if I’m stereotyping. I’m just some slut, don’t mind me. (Disclaimer: I may have accidentally conflated the Harvard group with a similar group mentioned, based in Princeton, with slightly more extreme views. I glanced at their website and glanced quickly away.)

Side note: speaking of PIV only, the group’s president, Janie Fredell, says oral sex is “disgusting and disrespectful." Dude, don’t knock it ‘til you’ve tried it.* This jumped out because I’ve heard this attitude from a distressing number of women my age (college), including those who are far from virgin lands. It’s one thing just to not be a huge fan of oral sex. People have unique preferences, and I respect that. But “disgusting”? If that’s the first adjective that springs to mind, then either you’ve got some issues about your vagina, or, honey, he ain’t doin’ it right.

*That’s the thing about abstinence-promotion groups, isn’t it? You’re being lectured by people who have zero familiarity with the topic at hand. At least it’s slightly better than grown-ups I’ve known who would wax loquacious about their wayward teenage years to youthful audiences, extolling the inestimable value of abstinence… to which I always want to reply, “Easy for you to say, asshole, you never abstained!”

(I can’t even conjure up a way it could be construed as disrespectful. If you’re just shoving his head down [or hers, of course; I’ve been assuming male-on-female oral sex here - how heteronormative of me!], then yeah, that’s not very polite. But if someone’s lavishing pleasure upon their partner like it’s the only route to Nirvana, then what the hell is wrong with that?)

Oh, and about the gays: they can’t get married, so their obligation is to remain abstinent for life. Good luck!

In short, their philosophical “feminist” position is that women have control over their bodies. Cool, yeah, I’m with you so far. I take obvious exception, though, to the follow-up that the only way to be in control of your body is to Just Say No, 100% of the time. No intercourse, no foreplay, no dry humping in the backseat of the car… absolutely no orgasms at all. When asked about masturbation, the group’s president just said, “Oh, God, no!” Replace the “no” with “yes” and you’re a bit closer to my position.

Mostly, though, they focus on avoiding sex with boys. After all, in case you guys hadn’t heard, there’s a bit of a double standard going around, and if women have sex, they are devalued. So the True Love Revolution (can I get another puke for that name?) is fighting the culture… by not having sex. Gee, my inclination would be to fight the double standard. Maybe that’s just me.

But my biggest problem here is the false dichotomy: wait until your wedding night vs. be a promiscuous whore who’s giving it away to anyone who makes eye contact. Nice logic, Harvard. They decry the hook-up culture. Okay, that’s fine. I think the hook-up culture on modern college campuses sucks in a lot of ways. That’s why I never participated (along with the fact that I avoided alcohol for a long time, which speaks a lot to the reason the hook-up culture exists in the first place). But it’s a little late for me to wait until marriage. There’s a huge middle ground, a middle ground I am delighted to occupy. When you’re with someone you love, you wait until you both feel ready, you respect each other, and you both care about each other’s needs, why the hell shouldn’t you have sex? For God’s sake, it’s fun. If you’re clean, monogamous, and neither of you is slutting it around on the weekends, you’re not likely to catch all the scary diseases they warn you about. Use protection, use good judgment… sure, it carries risk, but so does anything worth doing.

Don’t even get me started on the other corny claptrap that you hear from all the abstinent groups, including this one. This shit pissed me off long before I was any kind of active. You know, you’re hurting your future husband (or wife; at least at Harvard they’re equal-opportunity) when you have sex, you’re devaluing yourself, you’re making sex no longer special… They even spread “facts” that have been “proven” by “science” that turn out to be complete bullshit. There’s zero evidence that premarital sex leads to poverty, higher divorce rates, or (my favorite) “an inability to bond.”

But if you wait, it all pays off when you’re married! Everyone knows that losing your virginity is the most beautiful, wondrous thing that can ever happen to you, a passionate night of joy, oxytocin, and sparkles!

Here’s another problem about being lectured about sex by people who’ve never had it: it does. not. work. like. that. Without getting super-TMI here, I will say that I was fully prepared for my experience not to be a bucket of rainbows. I did not expect to orgasm, or even to have very much fun. Still, I felt ready, I loved (love) my partner, and I wanted to do it. He did, too. So we did. It was awkward as hell and it hurt like a motherfucker. I understand this is not uncommon for first-time premarital trysts.

We are both educated young people. (Not long after the mutual deflowering, we went to a seminar by two sex educators on female orgasm, which promised to teach us everything we needed to know. Both of us walked away saying, “Well, that was fun, but I didn’t really learn anything…”) We were prepared with all the trimmings. We were about as ready as we could be – or so I thought! If only we’d had a marriage license, which would have conferred superpowers upon my vagina… and especially if he’d never ever so much as brushed against my lady-parts before that night, and I had never laid eyes on a penis**… if we hadn’t already practiced giving each other lots and lots of orgasms… Yeah, yeah, that would have been MUCH easier.

**I think if I were a blushing bride already dying of nerves on my wedding night, I would already be nervous enough that, with one glimpse of that thing, I’d pass out. I mean, Christ, have you seen one? Oh, my bad, Ms. Fredell may not have.

And just for the record: so far my bonding powers are intact, I am not yet divorced or in poverty, I have no diseases or babies… and I have done it more than once.

But I’ve saved the best for last, the single paragraph that made me want to punch this chick in her smug face.

I agree. Wholeheartedly. Orgasms are fab, but love is better. Love is the best thing in the world. I have never known anything as wonderful as this first love (we’ve been together a little over a year, both young and full of all that cliched passion). I am really disgustingly pukingly happy because of love. Love is a many splendored thing, love lifts us up where we belong, all you need is love. So what’s the problem?

Here, I’m gonna put that last sentence again.

You stupid fucking self-righteous bint! What the fuck is wrong with you that you believe sex and love are mutually exclusive? Really, honestly, you believe that because my boyfriend pays lip service to my bajingo, it means he only loves me for my labia? I cannot even evaluate how many levels of fucked-up this is. I am forced to yell the same two words over and over again: FALSE DICHOTOMY! FALSE DICHOTOMY! FALSE DICHOTOMY! The options are not sex-or-love. The options are not my-perfect-beautiful-experience-every-woman-should-have or the-miserable-bondage-of-sluttery. Oh don’t mind me, I’m a slave to my hormones! And this is equally offensive to men, who only appreciate women because they’re a handy place to stick a dick (except your boyfriend, who appreciates you only because you won’t let him stick it there).

Look, chick, I am appreciated more than I’ll ever fucking deserve - not just for my rockin’ body and my convenient orifices, but for who I am. Conjugate it: I love, he loves, we love. AND SOMETIMES, WE ENJOY BEING NORMAL SEXUAL BEINGS. Mature adults in a mature relationship can handle it without devaluing all that is good in the world, and just because you’ve chosen something different doesn’t mean yours is the best decision for every woman, for every couple. Grow the fuck up! Jesus!

And get down off that fucking high horse; you’ll break your precious hymen.

Aww, my very first real post, and I managed to post it twice. Off to an excellent start. The second one was slightly edited; I didn’t realize this one had posted itself already. And I can’t seem to figure out how to report either of them. Help?

Oh, and hi.

$5 says she’ll have her second abortion sometime next year.

You can’t report your own posts, which is kind of annoying. I reported it for you. In the meantime, everybody should use this thread.

Reporting a post that you submitted is not allowed by the features of the vBB software. Never fear. I’ve hit the “report this post” link-y thing on your other thread, and asked for the one without responses to be deleted.

Very nice work, Essay; you’ve made me want to go and look up your fourth post.

Welcome to the Dope.

ETA: November, is when you made that post? Quite the locquacious specimen we have in you, what?

Although the whole pre-med thing is probably a good mitigating factor.

Would you say, then, that you were saving yourself for the Pit? :smiley:

Welcome to the SDMB, nice rant!

Ooooh, look, this is so exciting! I managed to quote someone! So much to learn.

I’ve been lurking for ages upon ages, and joined up on a whim in November when I saw someone asking about Wash U pre-med, currently my main area of expertise. Then I had nothing more to say… up 'til now, everything had been all right. :slight_smile:

Once I pass the second semester of organic chemistry, I will have more brain-space to devote to outrage, umbrage, and general rage, directed at things other than mechanisms and Lindlar’s catalyst.

Also, neutron star: precisely. Heehee.

Ah, someone else who likes to read New York Times articles and post threads on them. A dying breed!

Agreed with your points. I also got the sense that Janie Fredell had some sexual issues. Partly it was the oral sex is icky and wrong thing.

But this…doth protest too much?

And this:

Hell’s bells, I thought it was what we all did.

Seriously? Why not? You’re not devaluing yourself by masturbating (unless you want to–personally I like to do it a little rough so I can’t respect myself in the morning), you can’t get STIs, you’re not hooking up meaninglessly. I mean, we are humans, we have urges. If you’re not going to have sex until marriage, why is it so creepy to jerk off?

It’s a little hard to take her seriously. Maybe she’s just got a lower sex drive than most?

Great rant!

I will say that some of the arguments that you’ve highlighted seem to me that they could be valid, if they were used in a more limited manner: hook-up sex seems to me to be something that happens with people one barely knows, so the argument about the pleasures of getting to know someone vs. the pleasure of knowing someone in the biblical sense might be made to work. But to use the argument as a universal does make those people look like twits.

That may be the best fifth post I’ve ever read.

Hell, even if it was universally true that random hook-up sex was much, much less enjoyable than sex within the bounds of marriage, that still wouldn’t be an argument against random hook-up sex (or any other kind of premarital sex); you can, of course, have both, over your lifetime. It’d be like avoiding ever eating apples simply because of the existence of apple pie. (Hell, it’d be like avoiding ever eating simply because of the existence of sex. It is so very fundamentally ridiculous, the idea that this constitutes a serious argument.)

Of course, many of these people apparently think that somehow, premarital sex not only isn’t as good as, but actually severely ruins your ability to enjoy, marital sex. It’s hard to argue with this kind of willful ignorance (or extreme naivete).

Essay: Great rant! Good mix of humor, logic, and personal experience, the foundation of a solid Pitting.

Moderator’s Note: Duplicate threads now merged and living in sin together.

Nice rant, Essay. There are a million things that piss me off about people who act as though having sex is a bad thing, but the two that boggle my mind most are that you’re somehow devaluing yourself, or abusing your body.

There is no amount of sex you can have that makes you an inherently less worthwhile human being. If you feel good about it, then it’s good. We are not defined by our genital mileage.

And people… this is what your body is for! If you’re doing it right, sex gets your heart rate up, works all the major muscle groups, and gives your skin a unique glow. Think about that while you throw down another Hot Fudge Sundae of Sublimation, Ms. Fredell.

Brilliant rant!

Actually, too brilliant.

I didn’t see any of the usual frothing at the mouth out of control soap box preacher retorts. What.the.hell.is.wrong.with.you?

You musta got laid recently.
:smiley:

I read it, I liked it, and then I read more, and I liked more.

Until I came to the usage of the word “bint”. Then I knew I was in love. :smiley:

Welcome to the Dope, and long may articles piss you off, if we get to read rants like this.

Essay: You are quite the writer, for a slut. :wink:

I was brought up Catholic, I knew girls like that. I am sure she’s consumed all day by the thought of sex.

Well said Diana G.

The fact that many (most) societies lean to the “a woman who has sex is a nasty whore” school of thought is evidence that women still have a HUGE ladder to climb to reach equality.

Bless their misguided little hearts though, men are only proving evolution…protect one’s seed at all cost.

But will they ever learn that men are only useful for 4 things; procreation, protection, company and fun.

Science is dealing with procreation issue very well. You don’t need to know the man he just needs to know a test tube.

Protection? A dog is woman’s best friend failing that get a burglar alarm and take a self defense class.

Company? You better be damn scintilltating! Can men ever replace a heart to heart with a good mate?

Fun? That’s where batteries come into play!

Men are fantastic fun as long as they
remember they could be made redundant any time…

What is good for the goose and all that.