Students with ADD getting double time and private rooms on exams

[Testy]

It would seem that making special allowances for tests misses the whole point of testing. If I’m testing a group of kids, I want to know which of those kids learned the most and can use that knowledge under standard conditions.
If we aren’t going to use standardized conditions then what is the point? Kid X gets a good grade under the usual conditions while Kid Y gets the same grade but needs twice as long or a private room or whatever. Which kid learned the most and can use it under a small amount of pressure?
If the test isn’t going to tell us this then why bother, simply declare them all as having passed and be done with it.
It seems like accommodation to this-that-and-the other “special” needs is extremely unfair to those who don’t get the extra time or private rooms or have the thing read to them.

Alternatively, why not just build a “special ed” version of the SATs, MCATs or whatever? Call them SE-MCATs or SE-SATs and report them to the college or employer or whoever needed the info. We could then extend all the accommodation anyone wished, allow open books, calculators, private rooms or whatever. Others who don’t need the special treatment could take the real-deal. Of course, if someone took the special ed version, that would have to be reported. This would probably stop most of the people gaming the system.

Regards

Testy

[An_Arky]

Whew. I’m coming in late to this thread, so I don’t know if this is germane…

My 9 yo son has ADHD. Tested and everything. He can be allowed extra time on tests, if needed, per policy, I believe. He doesn’t need it; he loves taking tests and doing them fast, expecially math. He does, however, sometimes have trouble with writing-type tests and assignments, and at times, might benefit from extra time, but I think it’s the exception rather than the rule. A lot of ADHD kids have trouble with writing.

I think the way they handle it is appropriate. They know he has ADHD, if he seems to be having trouble, first they try to remove distractions, if any. Only if they can tell he’s just not on his game attention-wise, that he might be allowed extra time.

One thing that helped him last year (don’t know if he’s using it this year or not) was him using a portable word processor, where he could type stuff that required writing (but wasn’t writing lessons, themselves, of course).

[Cubsfan]

@kanicbird

A ADD person is just not designed to excel in a classroom environment, put that person in a malfunctioning space capsule and I would give the ADD person much better odds then a non-ADD person IMHO. You are testing them outside the environment they are made for.

If your problem is basically boring and really meaningless, then the non-ADD person has a advantage, but if it’s a critical problem the ADD person will be better at solving it, especially if it’s a something that is ‘outside the box’ and takes creativity to answer.

Both of these statements are ridiculous. You are making the claim that a standard issue, non-ADD person is handicapped in high stress/importance situations. That’s just not true. ADD does not give someone super powers to work under high pressure. At best they would be equal to the non-ADD person.

Maybe they should make the ADD crowd take their tests on a roller coaster or during a UFC match or something then. That would bring out their inner animal and they would ace the test right?

[kanicbird]

@Cubsfan

Maybe they should make the ADD crowd take their tests on a roller coaster or during a UFC match or something then. That would bring out their inner animal and they would ace the test right?

Not much time but yes that would give the ADD student a advantage if both were on a rollercoaster and the non-add student should be given more time

[Chief_Pedant]

@Cubsfan

Both of these statements are ridiculous. You are making the claim that a standard issue, non-ADD person is handicapped in high stress/importance situations. That’s just not true. ADD does not give someone super powers to work under high pressure. At best they would be equal to the non-ADD person.

Maybe they should make the ADD crowd take their tests on a roller coaster or during a UFC match or something then. That would bring out their inner animal and they would ace the test right?

I am handicapped at hitting baseballs.

Give me extra pitches in a “standardized” tryout, though, and I could play for the Cubs. The extra pitches would allow me to get up to equal with athletes.

[Harmonious_Discord]

@brazil84

I think that on a multiple choice test, one spends very little time actually bubbling in one’s guesses. The vast majority of one’s time is spent reading and thinking. So if you need double time on a multiple choice test, it’s because you are slower at processing information.

From what you say, it seems that at least some people with ADD are slower at processing information.

What I meant was ADD often makes it take longer to change printed text into terms that mean something. ADD symptoms vary in scope and severity. Look up Visual Learner and see what it says about the process that a visual learner has to go through, for printed text. Some people with ADD do have a slower mind. You should not assume they have a slower mind, just because the processing of writing or reading text is slow.

Think of having a great computer and having to connect on a phone modem. You bottle neck on transferring movies, but can handle the best games without pause. Think of some ADD persons being able to run the game solo with no problems. The test Is like hooking them up to an online game with a slow phone modem.

I hope this helps. I won’t be spend much more time on this thread, as I have other things of interest going on.

[Slypork]

Both my son and I have ADD. I was diagnosed at 22. I can fly through tests, especially standardized tests (I got a 34 composite on the ACT) and so can my son. Our problems are based on organization. Homework is lost or forgotten, long term projects aren’t touched until the last minute, and everything distracts us.

My son has the additional problem of writing difficulties. He lacks the fine motor skills for effective penmanship, and not for lack of trying (he has had countless tutors with no improvement). Because of that he gets frustrated when he has to give a written report.

After he was tested by his pediatrician and a clinical child psychologist he was given the diagnosis of ADD (not ADHD). We had an IEP performed at his school that allows him extra time for written tests, extra copies of his text books (one for home and one for school), he gets copies of the worksheets and he can turn in homework at the start of the day instead of waiting for class so it doesn’t disappear before class starts. Some teachers, instead of giving him the written exam, will make it an oral exam and ask him the questions in a separate area from the rest of the class. Some will allow him to use a laptop to type it out because he can function better with a keyboard instead of a pencil.

These accommodations don’t give him an advantage over “normal” students. They make it a more level playing field for him. Yes, some parents play the system and some kids scam the teachers, but I think they are the rarities.

As for how he will do in the real world, it will depend on where he wants to go. I’m the manager of a software support team. I have learned skills and tricks to help me function on a daily basis and I find that computer troubleshooting is a natural fit for me because I can brainstorm quickly and make intuitive leaps to find solutions instead of doing things linearly. I’m sure my son will move into a position where he feels a fit.

Someone mentioned ADD and adrenaline. I have seen many ADD people, including my son and myself, will self medicate with stimulants. Before my diagnosis I was a smoker (started at 13) and hooked on caffeinated sodas and coffee. When my Ritalin wears off in the afternoon, I’m back to sucking down Cokes and double espressos. The stimulants seem to filter out some of the extraneous noise and allow us to focus on the tasks at hand.

To everyone who thinks that ADDers are scamming, think about this: would you feel resentful if a deaf or blind student was given an accommodation to help them in school? What about a dyslexic student? Why is it OK for someone with an obvious, usually physical disability to get help but not for someone whose problems are mental?

[brazil84]

@Harmonious Discord

What I meant was ADD often makes it take longer to change printed text into terms that mean something.

Isn’t that a mental task?

[phouka]

@brazil84

Do you disagree that some students diagnosed with ADD are asking for and receiving extra time on tests?

No. I am, however, pointing out that most learning-differences and disabilities can be accommodated fairly.

Do you have a cite for that? It strikes me as a little odd. You are almost saying that ADD-kids have trouble focusing, except for times when they don’t have trouble focusing. Aren’t most people like that to a certain extent?

This isn’t that hard, brazil84. Under most circumstances where people without ADD have no trouble focusing, those with ADD have substantial difficulties screening out distracting stimuli. However, once an unusually high threshold of stress is reached, people with ADD have an ability to hyper-focus. This is why people with ADD, especially men, seek out high stress, high adrenaline jobs.

You can try reading the literature yourself, beginning withHealing ADD by Dr. Daniel Amen, who runs a clinic that specializes in the diagnosis and treatment of ADD and other brain differences, injuries, and developmental issues.

You can also read Wikipedia’s entry and consider the PET scan images of a normal brain next to an ADHD brain. There are stark differences in glucose metabolism, a direct indicator of neural activity. The article also addresses “hyperfocus” as a symptom of ADD/ADHD.

Here’s a question: How would I test whether somebody has ADD?

You aren’t going to. Neither am I. Diagnosis of ADD should be carried out by a qualified doctor, psychologist, psychiatrist, or educational counselor. The vast majority of these qualified professionals refer to the *Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) *, which lists diagnostic criteria.

Alternatively, you could go to one of the Amen Clinics and have a series of SPECT scans done on your brain and see if your cerebral cortex metabolizes glucose at the same or lesser rate of established baseline “normal” brains.

That may be so, but from your description of ADD, it seems like ADD-students don’t really need extra time on tests.

My experience as an adult with ADD, a teacher who deals with the occasional ADD child, and a person who knows several others with ADD is that extra test time isn’t needed. However, I am not the one who evaluates students, determines what their learning difference or disability is, and decides upon appropriate accommodation.

However, if I had a student who was diagnosed with ADD and the school counselor or the student’s psychologist says they require extra time on the test, I accept their recommendation.

[Autumn_Almanac]

To me, the important question is, what is the test supposed to measure? It’s not supposed to measure how good the student’s eyesight is, so if they have poor eyesight, give them the large-print edition. It’s not supposed to measure whether they can hold a pencil, so if they’re don’t have working hands, let them read their answers out loud to the procter. Those kinds of allowances don’t break the primary purpose of the test.

The test is supposed to measure how well each student can answer a set of standardized questions within the time limit. Change the time limit, you fundamentally change the test. Frankly, it seems entirely appropriate to me that someone with a learning disability would likely get a worse score than someone without one. Let’s get the message out that the SAT measures a specific kind of performance, and that a poor score doesn’t (by itself) mean that a student won’t be successful at college or in their career. Let’s not tweak the test into meaninglessness by giving each student a version specifically tailored to how their mind works.

[brazil84]

@phouka

This isn’t that hard, brazil84. Under most circumstances where people without ADD have no trouble focusing, those with ADD have substantial difficulties screening out distracting stimuli. However, once an unusually high threshold of stress is reached, people with ADD have an ability to hyper-focus. This is why people with ADD, especially men, seek out high stress, high adrenaline jobs.

Ok, and I’m asking for a cite for this claim. Can you quote the Wikipedia article where it backs you up?

You aren’t going to. Neither am I.

Let me re-phrase that question. How would one test whether someone has ADHD?

I found the following in a link to that Wikipedia article:

Adults [4]

Often making careless mistakes when having to work on uninteresting or difficult projects
Often having difficulty keeping attention during work
Often having difficulty concentrating on conversations
Having trouble finishing projects that have already been started
Often having difficulty organizing for the completion of tasks
Avoiding or delaying in starting projects that require a lot of thought
Often misplacing or having difficulty finding things at home or at work
Often distracted by activity or noise
Often having problems remembering appointments or obligations

One of the things that troubles me is that the above symptoms could apply to most adults.

[Marley23]

@Autumn Almanac

Frankly, it seems entirely appropriate to me that someone with a learning disability would likely get a worse score than someone without one. Let’s get the message out that the SAT measures a specific kind of performance, and that a poor score doesn’t (by itself) mean that a student won’t be successful at college or in their career.

Other than the privacy issue, that’s not so bad. Unfortunately, SATs are so important to college admissions that I don’t think anybody would let that happen.

@Chief Pedant

You are welcome to have your neurosurgeon be standardized-test-free. I want mine to be the one who knocked 'em out of the ballpark–in a standardized timeframe.

I want the one who performs the best in the operating room. If there’s some evidence out there that people with ADD who need more time on standardized tests become worse doctors than people who complete it in the normal amount of time, then I’ll start worrying about it. Until then, I’m much more worried about the doctor’s experience where it counts.

[CrankyAsAnOldMan]

@Dangerosa

Absolutely. I wouldn’t want to hire an accountant who needed twice as long to complete work - most accounting is done under a time crunch and even good competent efficient accountants work 12-18 hour days over tax season or close or during audit (whatever type of accounting they do).

I have less understanding of how doctors work, but I do understand that they need to read the current literature, update records, and see patients, and they can’t possibly fit all that into a standard eight hour day. They need to be able to read and comprehend the literature quickly, quickly and accurately update records - or patient care suffers.

It isn’t clear to me that an SAT accommodation means that they require twice as long for all tasks.

The demands of a test like the SAT are fairly specific and may even be very unique to the test itself–it’s pulling out stored knowledge in a specific way, without resources, with the specific content mostly unknown in advance.

Many of the professional tasks you’ve described are different from what the SAT requires. Adding to one’s knowledge (like reading the latest medical literature) is different. Updating medical records by retrieving information about a patient is different. Applying tax rules and laws in a predictable order when completing a complicated tax return is different. Etc, you get the idea. I have a very limited understanding of neuropsychology, but I think I have it right when I say that learning, knowing, storing, retrieving, and applying information are separate and nuanced processes. What the SAT taps may not, in fact, measure well the kind of things that matter much in learning, knowing, storing, retrieving, and applying information needed in one’s job or studies.

Sure, some of the skills which make the typical SDMB genius perform well on the SAT (start a thread and I predict Dopers will race in their to report their 90th+ percentile performance, along with caveats about how they would have scored better if it weren’t for the appendectomy they endured 12 hours prior) also translate well into professional competence. But I don’t think the opposite is true (that having a disorder that prevents one from performing well on the SAT means you also lack the skills necessary for timeliness, accuracy, and competence in your job).

I do agree with other posters that if the numbers cited by the OP are accurate, it raises some questions. Do all these kids really have ADD? Who diagnosed them, and on what basis? Do their disorders all require additional time or a private room for the accommodation? It is tempting to conclude that there is some false diagnosing going on here, and that some students are getting what amounts to an unfair advantage, not to mention missing out on opportunities to address what their real problems might be.

[RedSwinglineOne]

No need to worry. In 74 years we will all be equal. Truly equal. Completely equal.

Harrison Bergeron

THE YEAR WAS 2081, and everybody was finally equal. They weren’t only equal before God and the law. They were equal every which way. Nobody was smarter than anybody else. Nobody was better looking than anybody else. Nobody was stronger or quicker than anybody else. All this equality was due to the 211th, 212th, and 213th Amendments to the Constitution, and to the unceasing vigilance of agents of the United States Handicapper General.

An interesting and slightly appropriate short story, for those who have not read it.

[Marley23]

@RedSwinglineOne

An interesting and slightly appropriate short story, for those who have not read it.

Handicapping people with exceptional abilities is sorta the opposite of what’s being discussed here.

[Dangerosa]

@CrankyAsAnOldMan

It isn’t clear to me that an SAT accommodation means that they require twice as long for all tasks.
.

While I agree it isn’t equivalent to every task, I disagree that it isn’t going to translate in the work force.

I was the “note buddy” for a woman requiring accommodation for an accounting class. I took notes on duplicate paper and she got a set because she couldn’t pay attention and take notes at the same time. I worked with her a little as well. Nice girl, but she was an accounting major who required more time for tests and a private space with her disability. The issue being that she had a tendency to transpose numbers - and needed to look at numbers several times to make sure she’d written them right - of course, distractions didn’t help. Not an uncommon disability - but one that is going to slow down ANY accounting work. Now, its always a good thing to double check your numbers in accounting, but she was past needing to double check them - she was into having to check them four or five times - and after that, the numbers still didn’t always foot out and she’d be starting over. And entry level accountants work in cube farms - its distraction city. I’m sure it was frustrating for her, it was frustrating just watching her.

We aren’t doing any favors to make accommodations for people and then have them unable to perform to standards in their jobs. But that’s what we are setting them up for. If she gets out and can perform to standards, good for her - I’d be happy to see it since she was certainly working hard to get her degree. But if I’m her boss and she can’t get the job done to close the books accurately in three days, she can’t do the job.

[RedSwinglineOne]

@Marley23

Handicapping people with exceptional abilities is sorta the opposite of what’s being discussed here.

Or giving an advantage to people with less than average abilities… Depends on your point of reference.

[brazil84]

@Marley23

Handicapping people with exceptional abilities is sorta the opposite of what’s being discussed here.

To my mind, that’s not entirely correct. It’s possible that the benefit an ADD-kid gets from extra time is a partial result of the fact that he or she is getting more time and everyone else is getting less.

After all, on many tests, most test-takers would benefit from extra time.

[brazil84]

@Dangerosa

But if I’m her boss and she can’t get the job done to close the books accurately in three days, she can’t do the job.

And then she hits you with a lawsuit!

[Dangerosa]

@brazil84

And then she hits you with a lawsuit!

The job requirement is that you can close the books in three days. The employer needs to make reasonable accommodation (and a walled office may or may not be reasonable for her), but if the requirement is you close the books in three days accurately, you need to be able to do that. You can always try a lawsuit, but you aren’t getting anywhere with it in this case.

The other option is I outsource all my accounting to a firm that I can end their contract if they don’t meet my requirements. And its possible that firm won’t even be in the U.S. where I need to worry about accommodation.