Submarine VIP Cabin & Civilian Senority

Factual Questions
1

So I was watching 60 minutes tonight and they had this story about the competition in the arctic between the major powers for resources, strategic bases, etc. During the video piece they put together they highlighted a 5 night stay by the SecDef (Secretary of Defense) onboard a nuclear submarine conducting a submarine hunting patrol under the surface of the polar ice.

This got me thinking, in that situation would the captain of the submarine give up his cabin for the SecDef? Are there guest cabins for civilian cruises/tours?

If the SecDef was a former submariner would he be given command of the submarine while he was onboard? What are the limits of civilian authority while on a military vessel? Could a high ranking civilian order the captain of a ship or submarine to stand down or fire on a target? (For example if the President of the United States was onboard a submarine, would he in effect be the captain of that sub?)

2

No way would this ever be done casually. It would require orders that called for the SecDef to assume command for a stated period.

Not with any chance of being obeyed. Presence of high-ranking civilians in no way relieves a Captain of his duties or responsibilities.

This is the one exception: the POTUS is the Commander in Chief, and could validly issue any order he chose to. He’d be a great fool to jump the chain of command, but an order to the CO would be legal and the CO would have to obey it or face the consequences.

But that in no way means he’d in effect be the Captain - he’d have to formally relieve the Captain for that to be the case.

3

Former submarine officer here…

When a high-ranking guest stays on board a submarine, they absolutely do NOT bump the commanding officer (CO) from his cabin. Instead, they bunk with the executive officer (XO), who is the second-in-command on board.

The CO’s stateroom only has one bunk. They XO’s stateroom has two bunks.

Indeed, on my sub we once had the Chief of Naval Operations (CNO) go out to sea with us for a few days. (The CNO is the 4-star admiral in charge of the Navy and who serves on the Joint Chiefs of Staff.) He bunked with the XO.

On a related note, during meals in the officer’s wardroom on board a submarine, the CO always sits at the head of the table. Nobody other the CO ever sits in his chair, not even the CNO. (The CNO sat to his right.)

P.S. I participated in an ICEX over 20 years ago in the Arctic on the same class of submarine as the one featured in the 60 Minutes piece. I was on the first submarine of that class to surface through the polar ice.

4

Absolutely not. The only way this could happen would be for the CO to be formally relieved of command.

Your question is complicated by the fact that the SecDef is a civilian, and not in any way qualified to command a submarine. (Even if the SecDef was a former submariner, to serve as SecDef he would have to had either retired or resigned his commission.*) So the SecDef could presumably relieve the CO of command, but would have to designate another qualified submarine officer as the new CO.

Let’s take a simpler example. We frequently had senior naval officers on board my submarine, such as the submarine squadron commander. The squadron commander was a qualified submarine officer (and also my CO’s boss). Nevertheless, while they were on board, my CO was still the commanding officer. If the squadron commander gave my CO an order, it was not in earshot of any member of the crew. It was clear to everyone on board that he was just a guest, and that the CO was still in command of the submarine.

*To ensure civilian control of the military, an individual may not be appointed as Secretary of Defense within seven years after relief from active duty as a commissioned officer of a regular (i.e., non-reserve) component of an armed force.

5

Is the XO having two bunks specifically because they might have guests, or does someone else also have access to that room and when VIP’s visit he just sleeps somewhere else?

6

In the RN it has always been the case that the captain is the guy in charge. In a fleet operation there might well be an admiral on board, but he is the CEO and not the Operational Manager. If he wants the ship to turn right, he would ask the captain and the captain would issue the order.

If you think about it - how else could you arrange things - just having a load of gold braid does not make anyone an expert on running a ship or a submarine.

I would guess that any accommodation problems would vary from ship to ship, who the 'passenger, was (I imagine the captain would happily give up his bed for the Queen), and whatever was available.

7

U.S.S. Nautilus?

8

Spadefish under Bardsley? mrAru was on that one too. I think I still have the vial of Arctic Ocean water out in the barn, I know I have the Bluenose and Magellan certificates from that cruise.

9

I’m not sure if the XO’s stateroom was originally designed with an extra bunk to handle a VIP guest, or if it just worked out that way. Regardless, this setup (one bunk in CO’s stateroom; two bunks in the XO’s stateroom) is pretty universal on U.S. submarines, in my experience.

If there is more than one VIP, they do not bump the XO out of his stateroom; instead, they would bunk somewhere else.

During normal ops with no VIP’s present, the practice on my submarine was that the XO “invited” the junior officer who was most behind in their submarine qualifications to bunk with the XO…so that the XO could yell at them every time they tried to sleep to get back to work on their quals. :rolleyes:

I’m not that old. :wink:

Regardless, note that the USS *Nautilus *(SSN-571) was famous for being the first submarine to complete a submerged transit of the North Pole on 3 August 1958. She did not surface through the ice.

The second submarine to transit the North Pole was the USS *Skate *(SSN-578) on 11 August 1958. She was also the first submarine to surface through the polar ice on several occasions in August 1958, but did not surface at the pole itself until 17 March 1959.

In any event, I stated above that I was on the first submarine of that class (the Los Angeles-class submarine featured in the 60 Minutes story) to surface through the polar ice. This was aboard the USS San Juan (SSN-751) back in 1993. The San Juan is also the lead ship of the 688I improved Los Angeles-class with retractable bow planes instead of the sail-mounted fairwater planes of the earlier 688s.

I thought you said before that mrAru was on the San Juan as well. :wink:

10

[QUOTE=robby]
<snip>not sure if the XO’s stateroom was originally designed with an extra bunk to handle a VIP guest, or if it just worked out that way. Regardless, this setup (one bunk in CO’s stateroom; two bunks in the XO’s stateroom) is pretty universal on U.S. submarines, in my experience.

[/QUOTE]

Even on Ohio-Class and other Boomers, with much more space?

I know the [del]luxuary submarine[/del] Soviet SSBN Typhoons has individual quarters for senior officers as well as cabins for VIP (which doubled as something else when not in use) as well a a swimming pool, a sauna, a smoking room, buffet service in the wardrooms… man for capitalists, you guys really got gypped in the livability department. :smiley:

Surpirsed when you found out eh?

11

I’ve been a civilian aboard a Los Angeles class boat while underway. They never offered me the XO’s spare bunk, instead they made me bunk in the 9-man icebox.

12

You must not have been a high-ranking VIP. :wink:

As a junior officer, I spent more than a year bunking in the 9-man “stateroom.” I loved it. It wasn’t too crowded with good ventilation and A/C. Far superior to the more crowded 21-man, which itself was better than racking out in one of the large berthing compartments. Of course the worst was sleeping in a rack that was strapped on top of a torpedo (this is not a joke), and these sailors were usually obliged to hot-rack (i.e. share bunks) to boot – three sailors from the three different watches sharing two bunks. One of the three was always on watch, so no shortage of rack space…if you didn’t mind sleeping on a shared mattress.

Anyway, when I finally got enough seniority to move into one of the officer’s staterooms, my living situation actually went downhill from living in 9-man, I thought. The department heads got the best bunks in the middle, and they hogged all the storage space. They were also constantly getting woken up for reports, so I was always getting woken up as well.

Thankfully I never had to bunk in the XO’s stateroom. He was a classic XO (i.e. a complete asshole).

13

[QUOTE=robby;19672849

I thought you said before that mrAru was on the San Juan as well. ;)[/QUOTE]

Spadefish, San Juan and Miami for sea, shore mainly NSSF though pre-nuke school Orlando while waiting for school to start doing MA in recruit side chow hall.
Save

14

No one snored?

15

I thought you’d mentioned that before. Looks like my recollection was correct. :slight_smile:

I never noticed, probably because I rarely got more than 4-5 hours of sleep at a time. :rolleyes: (Or maybe I was the snorer…)

16

It must really end up wearing on people.

Are there things the Navy could do to let people get 7-8 hours continuous hours of sleep at least every few days?

Are headphones ineffective? Must the department heads really be woken up that often for (what I imagine to be) routine reports?

If space is at such a premium, why doesn’t everyone hot-rack?

17

Indeed. It’s one of the main reasons I got out of the Navy.

Of course. They could start by not demanding 80+ hours of work every week in port, and more at sea.

At sea, submarines also follow a rotating watch (i.e. shift) schedule. So your days and nights are always getting screwed up. Here’s a typical schedule:

[ul]
[li]Mon - 0600-1200: Stand watch (get to miss training)[/li][li]Mon - 1300-1600: Drills (e.g. fires, flooding, reactor emergencies)[/li][li]Mon - 1800-2300: Work on quals or admin paperwork[/li][li]Tue - 0000-0600: Stand watch[/li][li]Tue - 0700-1100: Training[/li][li]Tue - 1100-1300: Skip lunch; take a nap until drill alarms go off[/li][li]Tue - 1300-1600: Drills[/li][li]Tue - 1800-2400: Stand watch[/li][li]Wed - 0000-0600: SLEEP![/li][li]Wed - 0700-1100: Training[/li][li]Wed - 1200-1800: Stand watch (with drills occurring)[/li][li]Wed - 1800-2300: Work on quals or admin paperwork[/li][li]Thu - 0000-0600: SLEEP![/li][li]Thu - See Monday above and repeat.[/ul][/li]Weekends and holidays are distinguished by omitting training and drills.

This is an ideal, best-case scenario, and is actually doable. However, it doesn’t take into account anything unexpected, such as getting woken up in the middle of the night due to a broken piece of equipment, or extra watches due to manning section tracking party around the clock, for example.

I had a stretch once at sea where I stood 6 hours watch as Engineering Officer of the Watch (EOOW), then stood another 6 hours watch as a member of the section tracking party in the control room, followed by 2-3 hours reconstructing the target’s track, followed by 2 hours of sleep before going back on watch in the engine room. I did this for months. I remember one week where I got less than 10 hours of sleep the entire week. By the end of the week I was actually hallucinating due to lack of sleep. The whole situation was absolutely asinine.

No department head ever wants to be questioned by the CO/XO about something in their department (even something routine), and not have an answer. It’s even worse if the CO/XO finds out about the issue before the department head does. BTW, division officers (like myself) were also often being woken up if there was any issue affecting their division.

There are a certain number of racks available in the design of the submarine. If there are more bodies than racks, then hot-racking is instituted, starting with the most junior personnel. They’re not going to start removing racks, though, so that that more people would have to hot-rack than would be necessary.

18

mrAru tended to take a hammock with him and nap down in machinery - of course stashing spare parts in his rack may have also made him move =) [and now you know exactly who mrAru is =) ]

I always had a blast on dependent cruises, it was amazing watching the other wives who normally didn’t go down into the boat boggle at how little room there actually is in a fast attack sub. Though I am still boggled at some of the guys they let into the sub fleet - I knew more guys with perma-bruises on their foreheads from hitting stuff, one guy on the Spadefish, Taff was 6’4 and over 250 pounds of muscle, one of the mess guys had been a noseguard and gave great shade.

19

What is the correct way to enter a (presumably) sleeping officer’s room and wake him up? A serious question. I think there would something formalized, perhaps tailored via experience to an individual’s individual grumpiness upon being awoken.

I have in mind something like what I see in Hollywood as “permission to speak freely, sir?”

…which I’m gonna OP

20

Basically, you knock on their stateroom door, wait for an acknowledging grunt, then crack the door open a couple of inches, identify yourself and give the report. Off-going Engineering Officers of the Watch report to the [Chief] Engineer and the CO. Off-going Officers of the Deck report to the CO. You report that you have been relieved and by whom, and give the turnover status of the engineering plant and/or ship.

There’s a somewhat more formal protocol for the Messenger of the Watch, who says something like, “Captain, the Officer of the Deck sends his respects and reports that…”