Carlucci … carp smoochy … eh.
Milo: “Would John F. Kennedy have gone anywhere as ‘Biff Turkle’? Would Florence Nightingale have been a hit as ‘Lulu McAdoo’? Yep–a person’s name decides whether they win or lose in life.”
Opus: “Me and Caspar Weinberger are gonna beat this thing!”
I defy anyone else to find a third Caspar Weinberger reference in Bloom County. I also realize that I have completely lost any possible stance I could have had on this topic.
BLOOM COUNTY YEAHHHHHHHH!!!
Okay well that probably invalidates everything else I have to say…
“not really, just knowing history means nothing.”
posted here by our everlovin increasingly foot in mouth dj
As a historian, medieval in fact YOU want to converse with me be prepared for blank looks about anything more recent than 1660, you can’t honestly appreciate something if you don’t understand where it came from. How each small change culminated in the “big picture”. A musician who has no knowledge of musical history can’t possibly create anything new because he has no concept of what is old. And 20 minutes ago DOES NOT constitute old.
Have I seen any of those movies? Nope. Am I crying in my milk over it? Nope. But come talk with me about the Battle of Hastings in 1066 and I am… what you say you aren’t interested in Hastings… hmmm shoe is on the other foot now huh?
Wasnt there a poem recited by Opus that mentioned “toes of Caspar Weinberger”? I think it was something about the wind blowing through them… I started to look for it but got distracted laughing 
toshirodragon, the vertical scroll bar is your friend. …
I am just going to pop in and maybe second what some other people have said. I reccommend seeing or reading these works, because they are good. Maybe they aren’t, but why sit back and take potshots at them when you can read or see more of them and have intelligent insults for it? I would reccommend Hemingway and some other authors, just because they give a nice insight into the human condition. Some are funny, others are not. Try 'em all if ya want, there is no harm in a little reading.
**
[/QUOTE]
HHAAAAAAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
oh shit, thats the funniest thing I have seen in ages!
Thanks Jack… jeez do I feel like a sheep
Sorry, but this:
This is so funny. Perfect for this thread. dalovindj, read up. Hehe.
You’d like me then…I got both your comments, and hate Seinfeld and sports.
I wish I’d thought of that…I’d not have done it, but the thought of doing it would have made me chuckle.
What’s the Russian obsession? It seems like every time somebody wants to show how they’re on the cultural up and up, they pull out a Russian. (How about Prokoviev… Prokofiev… oh fuck it I can’t spell. Or Pushkin, who has made 2 appearences) I’m surprised somebody hasn’t said “Hey, I really love Gogol” (to which: Yes! Best search engine ever!) or “How about that Dostoyevsky, talk about a punishing read.”
Also, why hasn’t anybody mentioned Dickens yet? As in, “You haven’t read Dickens? You fucking illiterate pipsqueak.”
on a related note, I said “Don’t believe me? Ask the dishes” the other day and got a whole room full of blank stares. Who’d’ve thunk?
Also, in defense of the pop music crowd, it is very difficult to get a motif to weave in and out, complete with in and reversions when you’re dealing with 2 guitars (one rhythm, one lead), 1 bass, and a drum set. However, this is not to say that beautiful music has not come out of popular artists. S&G did some good stuff (with motifs!) and my guitar teacher just about shit himself when I made fun of Jose Feliciano’s rendition of Light My Fire…
Tenebras
dalovindj said:
Well praise [your term here], forgiveness is possible for the ones I’ve missed. Maybe I won’t be cast into Unhipness Hell after all.
dj, I’m thinking you should be honored with some kind of award for self-centeredly assuming everyone should be exactly like you. I therefore dub thee the Wildest Bill of coolness.
That’s absurd. Utterly absurd. So, we needn’t study history in school, huh? History of Literature and History of Art is just meaningless, huh?
Well, you seem to have forgotten quite a lot. Being exposed to such music in high school (which you apparently forgot immediately) hasn’t been a sufficient education in Classical. Most of the Classical music I enjoy isn’t religious. And what exactly is your point by bringing up that there is “little or no singing” in Classical music? So what? It is music. Where exactly is it written that singing is somehow really important in music?
What exactly is your point, then? Did it ever occur to you that knowing these things are important for the personal gratification it gives you? The personal enrichment and enjoyment? And, a lot of Classical music has a rich history, so discussing it with other people is enjoyable. Not that I am expecting you to listen to it if you don’t want to…
No, that’s true. And please forgive me for jumping to a conclusion there - but so often people claim that “the only people that listen to Classical are stuffy intellectuals”, as if no one else would ever have the motivation, or reason to do so. (Like, they enjoy it.)
I was reinforcing the above point, that some people (even from humble backgrounds) listen to Classical. Just simply because they like it. And because they feel like it’s an important thing to be exposed to. Not that everyone should feel obliged to be exposed to it. But damneded if anyone’s going to say that knowing the history of Music (as in Classical) “means nothing”, because history “means nothing”.
And I’ve heard the bewildered complaint “there ain’t no words!” about Classical before. Which I find utterly bizarre, and a little sad. Music doesn’t have to have singing in order to be compelling and beautiful. In fact, often it is complex and has considerable depth without any singing.
It doesn’t make you a better person to know Classical music or lit. But it shouldn’t be sneered at, as if it’s nothing.
I am not sure I understood all of your statement there, but personally, I think that some of the time, people don’t “lay into” someone who doesn’t like a certain form of music or literature. But they will lay into someone who sneers and says “So what? Why do you like this stuff? There’s no singing, after all!” :rolleyes:
I dunno about people layin into you, but I expected to be flambed for lunch after I commented on another thread that the Beatles sucked ditch water. I was politely told I was an idiot 
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by yosemitebabe *
I was trying to point out is that before it was said that you are more educated from listening to music? so please tell me what you can learn strictly from music itself with no lyrics. You can’t you can only enjoy. I was stressing ONLY the education and not personal enjoyment.
but see everyone is expecting me and everyone else to listen to it and enjoy it. Maybe people don’t MEAN it that way but it does come off that way. hell the OP said watch/read new stuff.
Yes most people seem to think that, but that’s their problem.
Ok lets try this again, bad day yesterday. the history of music DOES mean squat in the real world, at least for the majority of people. When was the last time you needed to know anything about Bach in your job? Unless you’re in the music world then probably never. Or how about the newest movie? And I’ve never been asked to quote Hamlet at work either.
The only time that such things are good for are personal satisfaction.
This I know, I was only trying to get at the education part nothing more. Actually now that I think about it you CAN become more educated by music. But not just by classical music. Inorder for this to happen though the individual has to go looking for themselves.
I can personally say though that it’s not limited to classical music as I’ve read The Illiad and the Oddessey and a number of Greek Tragedies because of metal. I wouldn’t be all that surprised to find such stuff in pop music, I don’t listen to the radio so I wouldn’t know.
I wasn’t sneering as if it’s nothing, though some people do think that “pop” culture is ok to sneer at.
I didn’t interpret anything anyone has said as expecting everyone to listen to and enjoy classical music. The best distillation I can come up with of the discussion so far would be “If you want to have a common culture to use as a base for discussions, it is better to use classical works of music/literature/art as a basis due to their longevity. Redeeming qualities have been found in these works which transcend the time periods they were created in. Some pop culture art/music/literature may eventually achieve that status, but is it worthy of being considered ‘fundamental’ or ‘essential’ until it has?”
This thread was not about things you needed for gainful employment. This was/is about having common elements in your background which facillitate casual discussion between you and your peers. There is one faction which argues that pop culture is more important than classical culture arguing a wider base of peers who are likely to be familiar with it. The second faction is arguing for a classical-based culture based upon a belief that conversations would be more fulfilling due to the complexity of the shared subject matter. The basic idea is that a reference to a classical work provokes more thought than a reference to a popular work. If this idea is correct or not would have to be judged on a case-by-case basis.
The polarization of the group seems to be between those who believe conversations should be worthwile, and those who believe conversations should be easily begun/continued. Both have good points. What is the point in discussing meaningless issues? On the other hand, sometimes discussion is an end unto itself, promoting emotional bonds between peers and keeping the gears of personal interaction turning.
Steven
Admittedly, I haven’t read this thread in it’s entirety but were you serious with this line? I haven’t laughed this hard all week!
Yeah. What he said! 
Thank you Mtgman, you put it all far better than I ever would.
Another word about Classical music and the lack of “singing”: Ever look at the liner notes of a Classical CD? They’ll usually tell you all about the inspiration behind Classical works. You can learn more about mythology from some of Sibelius’ music. I’ve learned quite a bit about the arts from music with no singing. Lots of Classical music tells a “story”, and the more you listen, the more you “hear” the story. It’s pretty cool. Getting interested in the music, learning why the composer wrote what he did, what each passage symbolizes certainly can be quite educating. And also will give me something to discuss with like-minded people.
And I also agree with Mtgman about the longevity of the Classics. Certainly there is nothing wrong with enjoying current pop favorites, but 99% of them come and go, without being a blip on the screen of our culture. Something that was “hot” even a few years ago will be looked at with disdain now. (Just like with fashions.) So putting all your eggs in one basket, and getting exclusively caught up with creative works that won’t matter at all in a few years doesn’t sound like the best plan to me. But I’ll repeat - nothing wrong with enjoying whatever you like in pop culture. But to act as if that’s all there is (like so many do) is extraordinarily short-sighted. And people who have no interest in the history of music, art, etc. are missing out on some pretty cool things, IMO.
What I’d like to know, is where Pop culture separates from Classical culture. I’ve always been attracted to things with some age on them. Now, for instance, take movies. I can hold an intelligent discussion on the work of D.W.Griffith, or even Edison and Pathe, but is that Pop culture even though it is technically “Movies”? How about music? I have a pretty decent record collection. Is my 1919 “Rose Room” Pop? It was certinly considered “Popular Music” when my grandmother bought it. Where does it begin-"In the Mood?, -"Great Balls Of Fire? -“Stairway to Heaven”? Or isn’t it Pop until, oh, say last years #1 rap song?! I think most people would consider Pop to be anything done within their own memory, or put another way, the period since they first began to form opinions on their surroundings. For someone of about twenty-five, which I believe is Dalovin"s age this would be about the last fifteen years or so, while I would consider Pop to be anything made after 1970. Can we get some guidelines here? Any opinions?
This is the real trick isn’t it? Where do you draw the line? Many pundits have given arbitrary lines such as “at least 50 years old” or “Things that have outlived their creator.” I think it’s nontrivial. I would consider some “recently” written books Classics(The Lord of the Rings Trilogy comes immediately to mind even though it’s WWII-era). On the other hand there are books written a very long time ago that I consider absolute drivel and not worth the paper they’re printed on(The Man in the Iron Mask springs to mind, don’t even start unless you’re talking about the book, movie interpretations are different).
I don’t think this can have an “answer” even though it would certainly be a good question for Cecil.
Steven
Look, I know I’m joining in way too late. And I know I’m not adding anything here. And I also know that you can’t judge a person by what he’s seen, read, or heard. You haven’t seen Pulp Fiction? Rent it man, it’s cool! But you’re no less because you haven’t so far.
OK, all the disclaimers have been made. Time to cut to the chase.
[Rationality OFF]
The Godfather is a masterpiece (especially II, I, and III, respectively). It’s OK if you haven’t seen it, it’s OK if you don’t like Mafia movies, or movies with Al Pacino. That’s all cool. It’s still a fucking masterpiece.
The Sound of Music sucks complete ass. No matter what the critics say, it’s just a musical (and as all sane people know, musicals are dumb entertainment for those who cannot choose between a cheesy play and an easy-listening concert), and a pretty disturbing one at that. Yeah, yeah, sign of the times and all that shit. I don’t give a damn. It’s complete trash.
[Leary] I’ll stick that Do Re Mi right up your ass! [/Leary]
It’s cool if you love TSOM, and I’ll even grant you that it is indeed an important cultural reference. A reference so we all know what sucks complete ass.
[/Rationality ON]
Pretty straightforward and confrontational, right?
Don’t ask me to change those opinions, and I won’t ask you to change yours, however insane I may find them. It’s that simple.
I am so rooming with you at Dopetoberfest.
Go see Les Miserables or Jesus Christ Superstar sometime and call it a cheesy easy-listening play sometime.
Esprix