Then you do your damnest not to kill them. It’s not Israeli policy to target innocents. Unfortnately, innocents do get killed, but when you’re fighting in an urban environment against an enemy that’s indistinguishable from the civilian population, is protected by the civilian population, uses them as shields, and is willing to kill both himself and them to take you out, that’s inevitable.
Defending yourself != going on a bloody helicopter rampage into the refugee camps, when is what you are suggesting.
Pardon my ignorance, but I was under the impression that every bomb that killed people was a ‘homicide’ bomb, therefore the name isn’t really informative to me. Could you tell me a few kinds of bombings that aren’t ‘homicide’ so I can get a clearer understanding of what you’re referring to?
Thanks
I disagree–I don’t know of any definition of “terrorist” that says States can’t commit terrorist acts. If agents of the state are commiting violent crimes, the goals of which include inducing terror in a targeted segment of the population for political purposes, I think its fair to say that the State is commiting an act of terror…
Come on, ypou can’t really believe that, that IDF’s lack of regard for Palestinian life is well-known.
Also I find it quite hypocritical that you accuse the Palestinians of using civilians as human shields, something that is not well-documented and yet you can paint the IDF as purer than the driven snow even though their use of Palestinians as human shields is well-documented.
Is it me or are you incoherent?
What part of that don’t you get? If you’re implying that I’d like to see some blood and guts, then you can read above where I said:
Bush didn’t declare war on all terrorism. He declared war on international terrorism. It allowed him to fight terrorism without having to address the thorny issue of the IRA, Basque Nationalists, Chechnyans and militant Palestinian organizations and dozens of other groups around the world that kept their acts within borders.
It was in his speech after 9/11 where he stated his terms to Afghanistan. International Terrorism.
You may be right about the TransArab view (certainly with people like Assad and Saddam). So, here’s my view: let the Palestinians have their own state. If/when the bombings continue, we go in, barrels blazing and then it would be a “legitimate” state-to-state action.
Israel may not target innocents in a literal sense, but I think they exhibit enough recklessness when they target people who are allegedly guilty that the issue of whether or not they target civilians is irrelevant. In other words, if you launch a missile at someone you suspect of being a criminal while he’s standing in a crowd of innocents, it doesn’t matter if you were targetting them or not: you knew some would get killed, and you did it anyway.
They also most definately do target innocents with non-lethal force: witness them bulldozing down the homes of the families of suicide bombers.
That apprehending the suspects is more difficult then killing them (along with innocents nearby) is no excuse.
Bruce Hoffman, Inside Terrorism This is one of the best books on terrorism out on the market today. As to my statement earlier about terror vs. terrorism, the distinction is perhaps not used too much in everyday conversation, but in academic circles the distinction is much more critical. (And I speak as an historian).
It’s you. Put a “that” between “is” and “what” in his last sentence.
He’s saying that Israel’s actions (and the hypothetical actions you advocate) far exceed self-defense. Perfectly coherent.
The distinction between suicide bombing and homicide bombing are primarily semantical. The problem I have with the term “suicide bombing” is that it implies that the only person hurt was the person who blew him/herself up. In my mind, someone who blows themselves up in the middle of a corn field is a “suicide bomber”…
On the other hand, someone who blows him/herself up with at least the intention of causing the death of those around them are “homicide bombers”
Cite?
If you’re looking for the “Text of President Bush’s Speech Declaring War On Terrorism”, you can look here.
The only time the word “international” was mentioned was when he said:
We will ask and we will need the help of police forces, intelligence services and banking systems around the world. The United States is grateful that many nations and many international organizations have already responded with sympathy and with support - nations from Latin America, to Asia, to Africa, to Europe, to the Islamic world.
So what do you call a bomber who blows up other people but not him/her self?
And that’s probably the closest thing to a solution there is. But every government in the Mideast seems to be so paranoid, hate-filled, vengeful and/or just plain nertz that I don’t think that will ever happen.
I’m not obligated to point you to a more intelligent way of thinking–I’m free to say that your “GET THE IDF IN THERE AND PLOW THEM DOWN” position is really, really, stupid without proposing a better solution.
If the argument involves whether someone is a cat or not, it’s perfectly rational and productive to discuss the meaning of the word “cat” and “animal.” Likewise, if you’re saying that it’s fine and dandy to plow down an entire population because they’re terrorists, it’s reasonable to discuss what a terrorist is.
If you misunderstood it, then it wasn’t obvious to you.
A terrorist.
[to confirm what Metacom said earlier, not all terrorists are homicide bombers, but all homicide bombers are terrorists.]
Our Apology
Following the latest atrocity in Jerusalem, Secretary of State Powell pleaded with the Palestinians to issue some form of denunciation. Arafat complained that only the Palestinian side is ever required to denounce terror. Predictably, the Palestinian denunciation later mumbled that they “deplore the murder of civilians on both sides.”
Perhaps the Palestinians have a point, and so to set the record straight, I do hereby denounce the following in the name of the Jewish People:
- All Jewish suicide bombers who have ever acted against Arabs.
- All Arab buses blown up by Jews.
- All Arab pizza parlors, malls, discotheques and restaurants destroyed by Jewish terrorists.
- All airplanes hijacked by Jews since 1903.
- All Ramadan feasts targeted by Jewish bombs.
- All Arabs lynched in Israeli cities; all Arab Olympic athletes murdered by Jews; all Arab embassies bombed by Jews.
- All mosques, cemeteries and religious schools firebombed or desecrated by Jews in North Africa, France, Belgium, Germany, England or any other country since 1906.
- The destruction of American military, governmental and civilian institutions in Kenya, Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia and Yemen along with the murder of U.S. Marines and diplomatic personnel.
- All Jewish school books which claim that Arabs poison wells, use Christian blood to bake pita, control world finance, and murdered Jesus; or that Arab elders meet secretly to plot a world takeover.
- And I am particularly ashamed at the way my fellow Jews attacked the World Trade Center, Pentagon and civilian aircraft on September 11, and danced in the streets to celebrate the act.
Not much has changed, has it? And still the American Government puts it’s nose in Israeli business. Exactly WHO are they to talk? Especially while up to their eyeballs in shit about Iraq.
Let Israel defend herself as a sovereign nation and do as she sees fit to protect herself and her citizens. End of.
What if it’s an Israeli who blows up other people but not him/her self?
Abbynormalguy , I hope you never get called for Jury duty on a homicide case, or you’re going to be very confused. I find it much easier when words depict what they actually mean. Eg: suicide bombing - bombing where the bomber also intends to kill themselves.